Home Inspectors

Status
Not open for further replies.

kendm1

Member
Location
Louisville KY
Potentially one of the most despised professions in the Real Estate industry is the Home Inspector, I being one myself can say with no uncertainty it comes from all directions and rightfully so in many instances.. my question is are there any books for "inspecting" residential electrical systems that are well known for both thoroughness in "needed" knowledge and good graphics OR are there any exceptional videos known that cover the electrical inspection?
I, as many, Home Inspectors have a very good understanding in areas of the home construction process but lack in others, there are NO Home Inspectors I have ever met that can answer all questions of the different areas we inspect.
Even if you do not know of books or videos I would like to know what experiences you have had with Home Inspectors and things you wish they had a better understanding of? Granted, there are those Inspectors that re plain clueless, lets skip them..
 

John120/240

Senior Member
Location
Olathe, Kansas
Welcome kendm1, One Home Inspector couldn't get it through his head that the First GFCI could protect dowstream recptacles using the Line & Load terminals. This was a 35 year old residence that was for sale. Then they will miss open J-boxes, Flying splices Not in a box. Breakers doubled up with two circuits when breaker is only rated for one wire.
 
A couple of things you need to keep in mind-

The NEC changes, so something that was compliant when installed 30 years ago is probably compliant now if it hasn't been otherwise changed. AFCI's are a good example, if they didn't exist when the place was built, they may not be required now. You could recommend that they be installed (which may be harder that it looks), but you shouldn't necessarily say the property is deficient.

Different jurisdictions and especially power companies (PoCo) may have different rules. One PoCo may require something a certain way while the next one over prohibits that same thing. (Goes for any code, really.)

I guess what I'm saying is that some things are pretty timeless, like flying splices in NM cable, but some really depend on other circumstances. If you inspect a 50-year-old building against today's codes, you may cite some things that are really OK. The trick is knowing what those are :D.

(Welcome to the forum, too.)
 

electricalist

Senior Member
Location
dallas tx
2014 handbook has helped me see it as it " can" be correctly.
You have a hard task. IMO even so,done who has been in the electrical field all their life can't place an electrical value on a home .
 

kendm1

Member
Location
Louisville KY
:weeping: Yep, and others think there is a limit of anywhere from 4-8 on how many it can protect.. I see MANY items missed both by other

inspectors and the City "inspector", one "Inspector" reached over my shoulder and put a sticker on the panel after I had just written up

more than 10 safety hazards including the lack of grounding the CSST flex gas lines. I asked him if he found any issues and he said "nope! Good ta go!" Then went to the next home (these were new homes) and wasn't in it for more than 5 minutes and left. :slaphead:
Welcome kendm1, One Home Inspector couldn't get it through his head that the First GFCI could protect dowstream recptacles using the Line & Load terminals. This was a 35 year old residence that was for sale. Then they will miss open J-boxes, Flying splices Not in a box. Breakers doubled up with two circuits when breaker is only rated for one wire.
 

kendm1

Member
Location
Louisville KY
:happyyes: 100% agreed and I hope to get with Mike Holt and talk about his writing a book JUST for Home Inspectors and educating on must know and should know items as he sees necessary.
A couple of things you need to keep in mind-

The NEC changes, so something that was compliant when installed 30 years ago is probably compliant now if it hasn't been otherwise changed. AFCI's are a good example, if they didn't exist when the place was built, they may not be required now. You could recommend that they be installed (which may be harder that it looks), but you shouldn't necessarily say the property is deficient.

Different jurisdictions and especially power companies (PoCo) may have different rules. One PoCo may require something a certain way while the next one over prohibits that same thing. (Goes for any code, really.)

I guess what I'm saying is that some things are pretty timeless, like flying splices in NM cable, but some really depend on other circumstances. If you inspect a 50-year-old building against today's codes, you may cite some things that are really OK. The trick is knowing what those are :D.

(Welcome to the forum, too.)
 

kendm1

Member
Location
Louisville KY
:thumbsup: Maybe one of the best, I think it came out much earlier as Maintenance inspection of family dwellings or something like that many years back and then updated for the inspection industry. Doug Hansen is well respected by all kinda like Mike Holt.. and the NFPA is indispensable with some great people that are patient and informative.!!

Is NFPA 73 good for this?
 

romex jockey

Senior Member
Location
Vermont
Occupation
electrician
I, as many, Home Inspectors have a very good understanding in areas of the home construction process but lack in others, there are NO Home Inspectors I have ever met that can answer all questions of the different areas we inspect.

New construction will often see multiple inspectors , who will view the work in progress w/multiple visitations

That a HI is expected to view it all for problems decades later is akin to asking for Xray eyes and a magic wand.

So they (the HI's) are placed in a bureaucratic tug o' war , with factions on one side hanging what is often a very litigant hat on nothing more than a few hours of tire kicking, and a sea of legal sharks on the other poised to gnaw holes in it.

Entering the wraith of liability into the equation , the insurance cabal eventually defines standards and guidelines (because they own everything out to Pluto) , resulting in certifications, as seen via org's like NACHI , who's adoption by state has been nefarious at best

~RJ~
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
:weeping: Yep, and others think there is a limit of anywhere from 4-8 on how many it can protect.. I see MANY items missed both by other

inspectors and the City "inspector", one "Inspector" reached over my shoulder and put a sticker on the panel after I had just written up

more than 10 safety hazards including the lack of grounding the CSST flex gas lines. I asked him if he found any issues and he said "nope! Good ta go!" Then went to the next home (these were new homes) and wasn't in it for more than 5 minutes and left. :slaphead:
IMO the city inspector was right (on the CSST) if he was an "electrical only" inspector. Bonding of the CSST is not covered in the NEC, it is required by the CSST listing, and should be the responsibility of the CSST installer to ensure it is done, and whoever is responsible to inspect gas codes to enforce it. Of course a "home inspector" is typically wearing both hats to some degree.

New construction will often see multiple inspectors , who will view the work in progress w/multiple visitations

That a HI is expected to view it all for problems decades later is akin to asking for Xray eyes and a magic wand.

So they (the HI's) are placed in a bureaucratic tug o' war , with factions on one side hanging what is often a very litigant hat on nothing more than a few hours of tire kicking, and a sea of legal sharks on the other poised to gnaw holes in it.

Entering the wraith of liability into the equation , the insurance cabal eventually defines standards and guidelines (because they own everything out to Pluto) , resulting in certifications, as seen via org's like NACHI , who's adoption by state has been nefarious at best

~RJ~
IMO a HI is nothing more then a tool for finance companies to use for leverage when underwriting mortgages. In general the HI has no "authority" to demand anything be changed, he is just writing a "report card" of the condition of things in the home. Buyers and sellers can use this report for negotiating but no deficiencies in that report are legally required to be changed. Finance companies and even insurance companies however will refuse to work with you sometimes if you don't comply with what they want - and that is "free enterprise" you can possibly find a finance company that won't make you change anything, or maybe pay a higher interest rate or a higher insurance premium.

Buying a previously lived in home is like buying a used car. Things do wear out, need replaced/repaired, and there usually is no warranties, yet mortgage companies seem to expect the home to be "like new condition" according to inspection reports or it raises red flags:(

A 10 year old home is typically still a fairly new home, but likely does have code issues that have changed since it was new.

A 10 year old used car - much more common to be used beyond it's intended capacity, and safety equipment (if still functioning correctly) also has been superceeded in new car standards - but the car is still legal to drive at it's original standards.
 

69gp

Senior Member
Location
MA
I will agree with some others here that a HI is just a gimmick to make some money and to be used as a bargaining tool. You cant just pick up a book or take a 8 hour class on electrical inspections and think your going to know it all. As previously stated if a house was built in the 50's and done to code than the 2 prong outlets are legal, don't need a GFI in the bathroom or kitchen. Go back even further knob and tube is still good. As for a HI once telling me that the Type S fuses needed to be changed in a house I was selling I ripped him a good one. Could not show me in the code where it was required plus a few other items he said was wrong. I have over 45 years in the trade and I still reference the code. The one that I get a kick out of the most is there are rust spots in the bottom of the panel it needs to be changed.

It would be like me saying that since I did my 8 hour red-cross basic first aid class last weekend that I can work in the ER as an intern. You need to know the the limitations that you are capable of doing.

It would be better if a HI who knew what he was doing would recommend instead of saying things need to be changed. I would take someone who recommends more seriously than someone who tells me what needs to be done.

example:

The wiring to the panel is properly protected with type "S" fuses. Recommend that you upgrade to breakers.

Although the bathroom receptacle is not GFI protected this was within the code when built. Recommend replacing with a GFI receptacle.

Same wording to apply for the kitchen.

The bottom of the electrical panel shows signs of surface rust. Explain more clearly is it because the area was a little damp, is there a trace of water being on the service entrance feeders did the paint get scrapped off.

The problem that I see you having is finding out when the house was built and applying the proper years code for your inspection.

And sorry if it seems like I am being a little offensive just my opinion.

I along with many others have done this for a lifetime and take pride in what I do.

PS. you don't do inspections in MA, ME, VT, NH, CT or RI do you?
 

romex jockey

Senior Member
Location
Vermont
Occupation
electrician
I've been the sparky sent to address the HI's 'report card' , and then had to answer up to layers claiming i was the last professionally licensed entity , ergo liable for what i DID NOT address.

Since then, you could say i don't play very well with others.

~RJ~
 

electricalist

Senior Member
Location
dallas tx
There us go, seems simple. If the HI, doesn't work for the city or state and licensed by tdlr then they should have to have in writing have a statement that states his findings are of his opinion and are not are not recognized by anyone.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
There us go, seems simple. If the HI, doesn't work for the city or state and licensed by tdlr then they should have to have in writing have a statement that states his findings are of his opinion and are not are not recognized by anyone.
Absolutely.

When I get requests to inspect a home, usually from a local lending institution, I make similar statements in my inspection report. I also put in statements that clearly indicate I did not inspect every electrical related item on the property, in order to do so I would need to remove wall, ceiling, and other finishes in order to see all the wiring and that I would also need to take apart every luminaire, receptacle switch etc. I do indicate that I may have randomly looked at a few items and if I did not see any questionable installation practices that it may be assumed that majority of similar items are done in similar fashion as what was looked at.

I usually try to get out of those inspections first by being too high priced to do them. The people that want them want cheap and either want you to say everything is good (whether true or not) or they want a list of things that are in need of attention to use to bring down seller's price. Last thing i need from these people is to have a fire or other accident because something happened and they claim I said the place was safe, yet the fire starts in something I would have never seen without spending a lot of time doing a very thorough inspection. I will mention things that possibly were compliant when installed but no longer meet today's codes - let them decide what to do with that information.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top