Anybody changing the way they wire kitchens NEC2014

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frankft2000

Senior Member
Location
Maine
Now that arc faults are required for kitchens, and Square D has a combination AFCI/GFCI breaker (Model # HOM120PDFC), are you just installing this breaker, without the GFCI receptacle on the counter tops?
 

mopowr steve

Senior Member
Location
NW Ohio
Occupation
Electrical contractor
Now that arc faults are required for kitchens, and Square D has a combination AFCI/GFCI breaker (Model # HOM120PDFC), are you just installing this breaker, without the GFCI receptacle on the counter tops?

Well I've been using the dual function breaker for dishwasher but still putting GFCI's on counter but your idea sounds good I'll have to do cost analysis on using the DF breaker instead of installing the GFCI's I guess it should be cheaper.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
How much are these dual function breakers compared to single function AFCI or GFCI?

I have generally stayed away from GFCI breakers in the past for two reasons, GFCI receptacles are less then GFCI breakers, and sometimes it is nice to have the GFCI device local to the are where protection is required, especially in areas that seem to be more prone to trip events. Of course those areas are still ones that don't need AFCI - yet, like outdoors or in the garage.
 

shortcircuit2

Senior Member
Location
South of Bawstin
The DF breakers are less than $50 each...at my supply house they have Cutler Hammer BR series DF breakers now for $48...HD lists the price of Square D DF breakers at $45...I hear Siemens/Murray has a breaker tooo.
 

frankft2000

Senior Member
Location
Maine
The DF breakers are less than $50 each...at my supply house they have Cutler Hammer BR series DF breakers now for $48...HD lists the price of Square D DF breakers at $45...I hear Siemens/Murray has a breaker tooo.

Do you have a part number for the BR duel function breaker?
 

dcard22

New User
Location
Houston, TX
Siemens has a dual function breaker and I believe it is around $7 more than an arc fault breaker. How long does it take to wire up a GFCI Receptacle vs installing a breaker?
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
Siemens has a dual function breaker and I believe it is around $7 more than an arc fault breaker. How long does it take to wire up a GFCI Receptacle vs installing a breaker?
If you are going to install a non GFCI receptacle anyway, it kind of evens out labor wise.
 
and sometimes it is nice to have the GFCI device local to the are where protection is required, especially in areas that seem to be more prone to trip events.

Factor in to that whether the panel is inside or outside. A short trip to the basement for a reset is one thing, out and around the house in the rain is another... (I'll keep the counter-top GFCI's myself.)
 

ableliston

Member
Location
Basalt,CO,USA
How the 2014 code has changed for the home owner.

How the 2014 code has changed for the home owner.

It is disappointing that to win a bid by using combo breakers (AFCI and GFCI) to wire a house you take all of the usability away from the home owner by putting combination breakers for the kitchen and the rest of the house in their panel instead of the area where they popped a GFI. And on the refrigerator? Really? If they go to bed and don't know it popped everything in their freezer is bad when they realize it!
 

frankft2000

Senior Member
Location
Maine
It is disappointing that to win a bid by using combo breakers (AFCI and GFCI) to wire a house you take all of the usability away from the home owner by putting combination breakers for the kitchen and the rest of the house in their panel instead of the area where they popped a GFI. And on the refrigerator? Really? If they go to bed and don't know it popped everything in their freezer is bad when they realize it!

They should have stickers made up to go on refrigerator receptacles that directs them to send all bills accrued by tripping to the Code making panel! :)
 

macmikeman

Senior Member
What a fantastic way to expose homeowners to opening up their panels and trying to replace their own circuit breakers you put in with standard style ones. (assuming of course those will even be on the shelves in the future, methinks not is also on the long range gameplan.........) I wanna attend a code making panel sometime. I need the laughs.
 

John120/240

Senior Member
Location
Olathe, Kansas
They should have stickers made up to go on refrigerator receptacles that directs them to send all bills accrued by tripping to the Code making panel! :)

It s been said before, That if your refrigerator in the kitchen or freezer in the basement trips the GFCI that you have a faulty appliance & should be repaired or replaced. I still believe that the single receptacle was an acceptable alternative for refrigerator, freezer, & sump pumps. In my opinion.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
It s been said before, That if your refrigerator in the kitchen or freezer in the basement trips the GFCI that you have a faulty appliance & should be repaired or replaced. I still believe that the single receptacle was an acceptable alternative for refrigerator, freezer, & sump pumps. In my opinion.
I used to think that way. But have seen enough failures over the years to know that the GFCI is usually tripping because there is a problem. The AFCI issue is another ball game and I don't want to go there, but I have no problems with the expanding of GFCI requirements that have happened since about 2002 NEC. Can't recall when they threw out the single receptacle exceptions, but I have run into freezers in garages and basements that were shocking people because of a failure within the unit and it was also either a case of missing equipment grounding pin on the cord cap, or one time the freezer was just so old it only had a two wire cord.

I understand a freezer full of spoiled food has a cost, but how do you place a cost on someone's life? Apparently insurance companies find a way to.

They do make alarms that can monitor the freezer if it is that important to know it is warm- and it will tell you it is warm even if power to the outlet was never lost as well.

I have also stood my ground with a few items like pond pumps, engine block heaters, power tools and other items, that the GFCI is tripping because there is a problem with that appliance. I was not going to remove the GFCI just because the owner thought that tripping was an inconvenience, and have even found the problem a few times when an appliance repairman told them there was nothing wrong and the GFCI needed replaced.
 

GUNNING

Senior Member
Big ol Yes to DF

Big ol Yes to DF

I like the DF breakers. The Seiman breakers have 2 trip lights that indicate gfci or arc fault. As for kitchen usage, its about $5 more for a DF breaker and if it trips well duh that's what it is for. GFCI and Arc Fault usage is mandated by NEC and is a no brainer, I do not make up the rules and really like the convenience. They are perfect for panel replacements in older homes and I really like a markup on a $45 breaker than a $20 GFCI receptacle. They are the future.
 

DrSparks

The Everlasting Know-it-all!
Location
Madison, WI, USA
Occupation
Master Electrician and General Contractor
These "Dual Function" breakers. Are they not also OCPDs? Would they not then be triple-function breakers? Hmmm... :huh:
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
These "Dual Function" breakers. Are they not also OCPDs? Would they not then be triple-function breakers? Hmmm... :huh:
Well they probably have both thermal as well as instantaneous trip mechanisms for the standard OCPD function so maybe they are quadruple function breakers:)
 
I believe it is against the NEC to put the kitchen fridge on a gfci. At least, I know I've been called on it in the way past.
Second, you guys are all way over-paying for material. Do you not talk to your supply house about pricing? You know can do that, right? I pay $9 for a Leviton TR 15a gfci. The manager at my loca North Coast got me set up on special pricing from Siemens and I pay $38 for 15/20a arc and $45 for 15/20a DF


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