safety guy

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mickeyrench

Senior Member
Location
edison, n.j.
Safety guy at work is trying to start up some kind of electric safety program there for the maintenance guys . How do you tell someone they are qaulify to do electric work or not qualifyed. And how far do you let them go . We are talking about a industrial type work place 3phase 480 volt. From what i have seen they replace a nonworking part in kind hoping thats the cause, there is no troubeshooting. How would a nonelectric person know the differrence in a maintenance guy. Everyone says they know electric to build there worth to the company. They don't really fell they should worry about arc flash or shock.
 

DavisIMI

Member
Well first of all, the arc flash part is a osha regulation, their insurance company should or will start making them enforce it. Second their should be some sort of test to weed out the so called electricians from the real ones. When I started implementing test for journeyman hire ins, I was shocked at how little so many knew. I mean guys that claimed they had 20 yrs experience couldn't even draw a simple start stop circuit. Or could't tell me the correct or even slang names for a handful of parts/clamps. I was even more shocked when my foreman told me he couldn't answer half the questions. Like the test was too hard, heck a real top helper should have been able to ace the test. But anyway I'm really amazed at the lack of knowledge that a large percent of electrical workers have. A good test is the only way to weed them out.
 

bob

Senior Member
Location
Alabama
mickeyrench; Everyone says they know electric to build there worth to the company. [B said:
They don't really fell they should worry about arc flash or shock[/B].

You let an accident happen and every lawyer in the US will be looking for a room at the Holiday Inn. However, there won't be any vacancy. OSHA will have grabbed them all and will be reigning damnation on your company.

Davis types faster than I do.
 

iMuse97

Senior Member
Location
Chicagoland
First thanks for the responses , but these are maintenance men saying they know electric. is there a certain level of knowledge they should know?

Yes, they should be journeymen electricians with knowledge of how to evaluate electrical systems in a variety of ways including insulation values (meggers), resistance values and continuity, sizing of materials, motors, and conductors (amperage and voltage), grounding and bonding, etc.
 

jim dungar

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Wisconsin
Occupation
PE (Retired) - Power Systems
If a requirement is to be a 'journeyman', than I am not a qualified individual (I wonder how I will explain that during the arc flash seminar I am teaching this week at the University of Wisconsin?).

The requirements for qualified are determined by each company for each employee. It is completely acceptable to have many different levels of qualification based on the tasks being performed.

NFPA 70E, and OSHA, are much more than simply 'arc flash'. They are about having an Electrical Safe Work Practices program.
 

DavisIMI

Member
but these are maintenance men saying they know electric. is there a certain level of knowledge they should know?/QUOTE]

I'm a electrician that know's "electric", I have been in this business since 86 and I've done countless hot taps on 480V "without gloves", but now there are rules and regulations that I have to follow. I don't like it but its my a$$ if something goes wrong. I personally hate all this NFPA 70E crap but I have to follow it if I want to stay in this business. I done this stuff for years without it, but I guess I was lucky, I don't want to feel what the surface of the sun is like.:grin: So I follow the rules set before me. Just like they will have too also if they want to stay in this line of work. And thats about all there is to it.
 

slect

Member
Location
Florida
Qualified ?

Qualified ?

Aanother term that OSHA will use if your company finds itself under their scrutiny is "Competent Person". 1) They know the right standard. ( are they well versed in the NEC ? ) 2) Can identify hazards in the operation. ( Do they understand why and when potentilal dangers such as Arc flash can happen ? Do they know the proper PPE to wear etc. ? ) 3) Is designated by the employer and has authority to take appropriate actions. ( This is where your employer should be very careful to make sure 1 & 2 are satisfied before they designate a worker an electrician. Choose wisely. )
 

billsnuff

Senior Member
qualified person. one who has the skills and knowledge related to the construction and operation and installations and has received safety training to recognize and avoid the hazards involved.

if i do a Risk Analysis, document Training, complete a Job Briefing then i have met the obligation of 70E. Nowhere does it say the individual has to be an electrician.
 

iMuse97

Senior Member
Location
Chicagoland
If a requirement is to be a 'journeyman', than I am not a qualified individual (I wonder how I will explain that during the arc flash seminar I am teaching this week at the University of Wisconsin?).

The requirements for qualified are determined by each company for each employee. It is completely acceptable to have many different levels of qualification based on the tasks being performed.

NFPA 70E, and OSHA, are much more than simply 'arc flash'. They are about having an Electrical Safe Work Practices program.

Jim, I was trying to get the discussion started and came up with that. Thanks for qualifying some of what I said. I understand that maintenance personnel wear many different hats, and have seen some great work and some very poor work done in the name of maintenance, as I'm sure many have. Hope your arc flash seminar isn't diminished by your not being a JW:grin:
 

76nemo

Senior Member
Location
Ogdensburg, NY
Have someone come in and teach the NFPA 70E, OSHA 30, and create a lock out/tag out program


There's alot more to it than that, and it comes in practical sense and knowledge of what we do. So many people take disregard to this field, and unfortunately, alot of those people don't come home.
 

DavisIMI

Member
I agree, you shouldn't have to be a journeyman to "teach arc flash training" I guess anyone who has read the NFPA 70E and has half a brain and a good power point presentation could do that. I've attended 5 such seminars now and there all pretty much the same. And maybe to preform a thermal audit on a power system you wouldn't necessarily have to be a journeyman, which most who doe that type of work isn't. BUT, to open a live power distribution panel and preform hot work inside that panel, I do believe you need more than a class or a degree. I take some acquired skills and training not to mention some good old nerve, that of which I don't think is taught in any class of school that I know of. It takes some years of experience working in this field under the supervision and guidance of a well qualified experienced journeyman. Thats the only way that I know of that any person can gain the skills and qualifications to work in a live panel that has the capabilities to kill that person in less that one second. Furthermore, I think, this is my own theory and I have my right to it, that all this arc flash crap is to prepare the electrical work place so that UNTRAINED individuals can work in this field and to take most of the dangers out of the work place so that UNTRAINED individuals can feel somewhat safe. Face it, there are exceptions, but there aren't that many bright young individuals coming into the electrical field like there were 20-30 years ago. Society, has trained them to believe that if you don't get an education and have a job in front of a computer or go to work in a suit and tie you are a failure. And right now and in the next 10 years the babyboomers are retiring, which make up most of the skilled JOURNEYMEN in the work force that does this type of work. I know most of you will disagree with me and thats fine but I've had to hire and man jobs for the last 15 years and I know that all the good workers already have jobs, people keep these men, the ones looking for work, most of the time, are the ones that have been culled. Just the facts. If your good you don't have to look for a job, you already have one, for the most part. And if the electrical field doesn't do something there isn't going to be anyone to do this highly dangerous work in the near future. Hence, ARC FLASH.
 

bobsherwood

Senior Member
Location
Dallas TX
Wow, DavisIMI..... hummm... I have been in the business since 1970 something... I have very mixed feelings about NFPA 70E. One thing I do feel though ... if everyone goes by this book... there will be no more lost lives. I like that!!! On the other hand, big ole gloves, hoods that fog up... loose cloths... there are dangers in that as well. My company has adopted NFPA 70E and we will follow it to the letter.... I for one will never sign a "hot work permit". I just can not say there are any circuits that can not be turned off....
 

DavisIMI

Member
There are lots of situations where circuits cant be turned off. In older plants that don't have mcc's, or in sections of the plant were they haven't install mcc yet. There will just be wire troughs with 350-750 mcm's, three phase of them. ran in the trough, or wireway. All of the starters or disconnects of panels that connect to those feeder circuits are just taped on. Over the years they get to be a lot of devices and systems that connect to this on feeder trough, or wireway, and if you want to add something new you have no choice but to do a hot tap, or shut half the plant down.

As far as arc flash gear making men safe and saving lives, that's all good. My biggest beef with the whole thing is enforcement. Its a lot of expense to buy several arc flash suits for me and my men, training, upkeep on the gloves and equipment, which in turn drives up my labor rate. So when some plant enforce it and some plants don't it makes the playing field uneven. Heck, I know of contractors and plant that haven't even herd of arc flash, or so they say. So when it comes to pricing a job, I've got extra expenses that this other so called electrical contractor hasn't. You know. either arc flash or no arc flash. Everyone comply or not. I don't see how a multimillion dollar plant can operate , have their own electrical engineers and act like they've never herd of NFPA 70E. The same goes for these contractors that act, I hope their acting, like they have never herd of NFPA 70E. Either enforce it or drop it.
 

bobsherwood

Senior Member
Location
Dallas TX
I am lucky that I am not an electrical business. University maintenance... We require all electrical contractors that come on campus to comply with our safety regs. One contractor even had "safety" on his bill. I have no problem with that at all. It was a medium voltage job, they had a "safety" guy checking the job and all complied with the rules. But, yes, everyone needs to be on the same page...
 

PetrosA

Senior Member
As one of "the guys" working for someone else out in the field, I really wish they would enforce PPE and safe practices. Not only to level the playing field, but for my kids' and wife's sake, and mine. There isn't ONE supply house in this whole area that sells any kind of safety equipment aside from lockout-tagout supplies and this is an area where the POCO forces us to pull meters, cut hot services, cut off barrel locks, etc. If this is going to catch on, They have to make it known and accessible to the people doing the work and not some mysterious realm that those in the know deal with. I just spent $100 on 00 gloves and leathers - out of pocket, because I want them and no one else is interested in paying. I'll add the other stuff over time, but it's a huge expense for an employee and I know that my boss has the responsibility to buy it in the first place which makes it all the more crappy.

Until it's as commonplace to keep PPE in your truck as it is to have a pair of linesmans, this isn't going to work.

Just wanted to add this - Accidents don't happen when you expect them to nor are they always dependent on human error or they wouldn't be accidents. That's the whole point of the safety gear, to cover you when something you're not expecting to have happen, happens.
 
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