Abandoned range circuit can i use it for the dryer?

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iwire said:
How did you decide that only the cable has to be existing?

If you reuse an existing NM that was installed before GFCIs where required to supply a new receptacle in the bath room are you not required to provide GFCI protection?

The breaker is new, the receptacle is new, the appliance is new, the use of the circuit is new.

IMO the inspector would be well within their authority to call it a new installation ..... or they might also let it slide. :smile:


This is an interesting thought. I wouldve saw this as 'existing' as well. If you are not changing the branch circuit here. I would think that the inspector would be more prone to let this go, than to make them insall all new 4 wire cable.
 

LarryFine

Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
Location
Henrico County, VA
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
iwire said:
If you reuse an existing NM that was installed before GFCIs where required to supply a new receptacle in the bath room are you not required to provide GFCI protection?
But that's akin to replacing the receptacle and breaker re: the OP, not the condcutors. We agree on the new receptacle and breaker; we disagree on the existing conductors.

If replacing a receptacle in an old bathroom, I would agree with the now-required GFCI protection, but you wouldn't have to replace, say, a non-EGC NM cable or one with a smaller EGC, would you?

Let's say you're replacing a small fused sub-panel in a detached building with a small circuit-breaker sub-panel, and the existing feeder cable in use was installed sans a separate EGC, as was permitted per the exceptions.

Can't you re-use the existing cable, with the neutral bonded, as long as no other metallic pathways have ever been installed?

In a bedroom, if we install a new receptacle, every part of the new installation must meet present requirements, but if we replace a receptacle, we don't have to replace the cable.

To make that last example slightly more pertinant to the OP, let's say we have a 20a window AC receptacle, fed by 12/2 with a small EGC. Now, we want to replace it with a 15a receptacle.

This certainly fits the general description of the OP's question. We all agree we also need to replace the breaker. Must we also run a new cable with a full-sized EGC?


Your turn. ;)
 

LarryFine

Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
Location
Henrico County, VA
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
hillbilly1 said:
If I remember correctly SE would not have been acceptable back then, because I think the neutral was required to be insulated.
For NM cable, yes, but the bare conductor in SE cable is considered usable as a neutral, and was permitted as an exception.
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
Larry, as I have always said in this thread, ultimately it will be up to the inspector to decide if this reconfigured circuit is new or existing.

All I am really saying is I would not risk my own money counting on the inspector to say 'existing' without talking to them first. :cool:
 

LarryFine

Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
Location
Henrico County, VA
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
iwire said:
All I am really saying is I would not risk my own money counting on the inspector to say 'existing' without talking to them first. :cool:
And miss the opportunity for a really invigorating argu..., I mean, discussion? Never! :cool:


Added: Simply replacing a receptacle and a breaker is something I'd never call in.
 

LarryFine

Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
Location
Henrico County, VA
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
iwire said:
What has that got to do with the price of beans in Chicago? :)
This:
LarryFine said:
Simply replacing a receptacle and a breaker is something I'd never call in.
Was in response to this:
iwire said:
Larry, as I have always said in this thread, ultimately it will be up to the inspector to decide if this reconfigured circuit is new or existing.

All I am really saying is I would not risk my own money counting on the inspector to say 'existing' without talking to them first. :cool:
Other than that, I happen to like beans, even in Chicago.

Of course, that's another reason to call it The Windy City.
 

LarryFine

Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
Location
Henrico County, VA
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
ItsHot said:
To the op. it is simple, and Mike continues to remind us, the ocpd determines the size of the circuit. Cloths dryers require 30a circuit, so you have to have a 30a breaker!
We're beyond that. The question has become: can we re-use a compliant-when-installed cable without separate neutral and EGC when we change the receptacle and breaker to a smaller rating?

I say it doesn't rise to the level of a new installation, and Bob says that it does.
 

frizbeedog

Senior Member
Location
Oregon
LarryFine said:
We're beyond that. The question has become: can we re-use a compliant-when-installed cable without separate neutral and EGC when we change the receptacle and breaker to a smaller rating?

Or....you use the exising cable again for the range but relocate it, say, to other side of the kitchen. Recep. and breaker unchanged.

Existing?
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
LarryFine said:
This:
Was in response to this:

So what your telling me is it is only wrong if you get caught?

I am very disappointed and surprised that you would think like that.

Regardless of my work getting inspected or not I work to the same standard.
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
LarryFine said:
We're beyond that. The question has become: can we re-use a compliant-when-installed cable without separate neutral and EGC when we change the receptacle and breaker to a smaller rating?

But the code does not ever talk about the cable.

The exception allows the use of the neutral as the grounding means for an existing circuit.

IMO once you have changed both the breaker size and the receptacle size and the use of the circuit it certainly can be considered by the inspector to be a new circuit.

I say it doesn't rise to the level of a new installation, and Bob says that it does.

No, that is not what I said.

I have never said the inspector must see it as new, only that they could and before I risked my own money by guessing how the inspector will see it I would talk to the inspector and find out how they feel about.
 

LarryFine

Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
Location
Henrico County, VA
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
frizbeedog said:
Or....you use the exising cable again for the range but relocate it, say, to other side of the kitchen. Recep. and breaker unchanged.

Existing?
If I can reach the new location with the existing cable without splicing it, yes. Existing.


Added: Why would an existing cable emerging through a new hole in the floor constitute a new installation?
 
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LarryFine

Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
Location
Henrico County, VA
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
iwire said:
So what your telling me is it is only wrong if you get caught?
No, no! I'm saying it's not wrong at all. I also said it wouldn't depend on an inspector's opinion because it's not something I'd get a permit and inspection on. If I did run a new circuit, I would call it in.
 

LarryFine

Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
Location
Henrico County, VA
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
iwire said:
The exception allows the use of the neutral as the grounding means for an existing circuit.

IMO once you have changed both the breaker size and the receptacle size and the use of the circuit it certainly can be considered by the inspector to be a new circuit.
I obviously would disagree with that assessment, and would challenge such a decision.

I have never said the inspector must see it as new, only that they could and before I risked my own money by guessing how the inspector will see it I would talk to the inspector and find out how they feel about.
I have no disagreement with that, and would mention my intent, if the situation calls for it.
 

ramsy

Roger Ruhle dba NoFixNoPay
Location
LA basin, CA
Occupation
Service Electrician 2020 NEC
LarryFine said:
I obviously would disagree with that assessment, and would challenge such a decision.

Are there any local amendments to leverage against such inspector rulings, or ways to persuade inspectors to call gray areas a wash?
 
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jrannis

Senior Member
zappy said:
Customer has a range circuit he isn't using and since his panel is full i was just going to use the existing 50amp 2 pole breaker and wire for the dryer.Is this ok to put a 30amp dryer outlet on a 50amp breaker?Thank you for your help.

just use a 30 amp breaker
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
LarryFine said:
I obviously would disagree with that assessment, and would challenge such a decision.

Based on what?

It is up to the AHJ, no different then 'nearest the point of entrance'

You might think 6' is fine but the AHJ thinks 5' is to far, AHJ wins. Nothing to contest.
 
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