Moving Neutrals To Sub Panel

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benaround

Senior Member
Location
Arizona
A/A Fuel GTX said:
Frank....Of course the neutrals and grounds are separated in the sub panel. All new circuits originating from the sub will be wired accordingly. I don't call what I originally described blatant......

Tom, I guess I should of put a smiley face after BLATANT, If you took offence
then please excuse me, I just liked the way it sounds. OK, do you agree that
it is a code violation ? I would agree that it is done that way 1000's of times,
but that does not make it right. You know, with the code, it can't be just a
little bit wrong it's either right or wrong. To me, taking another 5 or 10 minutes to do it to code is more professional. You don't hear a racecar driver
say " I think I'll try for 10th place today " , as Electricains we don't have any
play-offs, rbi's, or stats all we have is what we know and how well we do it.
Go for the WIN every day, unless you like Derick Cope ?

On the other hand, some day I aspire to be just like steelereman !!!
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
steelersman said:
maybe by you.

I am with him, I can't possibly take your posts seriously with the avatar you chose.

Totally up to you how you present yourself but trust me, it hurts your credibility.

Anyone should be taken seriously by the mere fact that they're here at the forum.

Thats a nice thought but the fact is we can only judge each other by what we see and read.
 

steelersman

Senior Member
Location
Lake Ridge, VA
iwire said:
I am with him, I can't possibly take your posts seriously with the avatar you chose.

Totally up to you how you present yourself but trust me, it hurts your credibility.



Thats a nice thought but the fact is we can only judge each other by what we see and read.
I would understand if I said something off the wall or claimed something that was hard to believe, and nobody was willing to believe me due to the avatar I guess. But what have I said that this avatar makes hard to be taken seriously?
 

A/A Fuel GTX

Senior Member
Location
WI & AZ
Occupation
Electrician
benaround said:
Tom, I guess I should of put a smiley face after BLATANT, If you took offence
then please excuse me, I just liked the way it sounds. OK, do you agree that
it is a code violation ? I would agree that it is done that way 1000's of times,
but that does not make it right. You know, with the code, it can't be just a
little bit wrong it's either right or wrong. To me, taking another 5 or 10 minutes to do it to code is more professional. You don't hear a racecar driver
say " I think I'll try for 10th place today " , as Electricains we don't have any
play-offs, rbi's, or stats all we have is what we know and how well we do it.
Go for the WIN every day, unless you like Derick Cope ?

On the other hand, some day I aspire to be just like steelereman !!!

Well stated Frank. I agree with your analogy. I just struggle with the logic of some NEC requirements and that is why this Forum is such an asset to all of us in this field.
 

celtic

Senior Member
Location
NJ
Too much weight is placed on an avatar.
Do the guys who don't have an avatar contribute nothing to the forum because they couldn't/didn't want to use an avatar?
Are the guys who dress their cats/dogs in "people" clothes not valued members because they are slightly off balance?
How about the guys who change their avatars....do they not offer valid point/counterpoint?
What if the image in the avatar is what the poster actually looks like - who are we to judge a person on their appearance?

The only solution to this atrocity is too ban all use of avatar.
Can I get an amen?
 

roger

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Fl
Occupation
Retired Electrician
celtic said:
The only solution to this atrocity is too ban all use of avatar.
Can I get an amen?

Amen, and it has been discussed.

Roger
 

tryinghard

Senior Member
Location
California
A/A Fuel GTX said:
The issue is, why do I have to un-land a grounded conductor at a main panel's neutral bar, splice a longer wire on to it and move it over 12" and land it again at an ISOLATED neutral bar in a sub panel.

The circuit has to run together and it certainly makes trouble-shooting easier.
 

nakulak

Senior Member
iwire said:
I am with him, I can't possibly take your posts seriously with the avatar you chose.

Totally up to you how you present yourself but trust me, it hurts your credibility.



Thats a nice thought but the fact is we can only judge each other by what we see and read.

I am particularly fond of the avatar you chose, and I find it intellectualy disturbing that one would consider the avatar of a gun toting cigar smoking dusty horse weary cowboy who premubably stinks of horse sweat from miles of riding in the desert shooting other cowboys ( reference the movie your avatar comes from) would be more inclined to be an electrical professional than the avatar that was in question.

To be concise, it is my belief that the notion which you postulate is ridiculous. (that's an amen)

I'm not trying to be rude nor devisive, but if this is heartfelt by the moderators then you should simply do away with the avatars or perhaps post a new rule about them.


JMHSO
 
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iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
celtic said:
Is it inferred that we will now join the faceless masses of the no personality(avatar) forum user?

That is not something I would want to see. I find the avatars helpful in easily identifying who your talking to.

Other then a very few specific vulgar avatars we have never stopped anyone from using the avatar of their choice.

Too much weight is placed on an avatar.

And I would say too much weight is being put on the couple of comments made. :smile:
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
nakulak said:
To be concise, it is my belief that the notion which you postulate is ridiculous.

I'm not trying to be rude nor devisive, but if this is heartfelt by the moderators then you should simply do away with the avatars or perhaps post a new rule about them.


JMHSO

Guy, I am allowed to have a personal opinion, in my personal opinion both you and steelerman hurt your own credibility with your choice of avatars.

However that personal opinion has not resulted in any action by me as a moderator to prohibit anyones free choice.
 

steelersman

Senior Member
Location
Lake Ridge, VA
nakulak said:
I am particularly fond of the avatar you chose, and I find it intellectualy disturbing that one would consider the avatar of a gun toting cigar smoking dusty horse weary cowboy who premubably stinks of horse sweat from miles of riding in the desert shooting other cowboys ( reference the movie your avatar comes from) would be more inclined to be an electrical professional than the avatar that was in question.

To be concise, it is my belief that the notion which you postulate is ridiculous. (that's an amen)

I'm not trying to be rude nor devisive, but if this is heartfelt by the moderators then you should simply do away with the avatars or perhaps post a new rule about them.


JMHSO
Thanks Nakulak. It feels good to know that at least someone else agrees with me on this and sees no big deal about it. I've never looked at your profile and felt that you can't be taken seriously because of your avatar. And even if that is really your pic that wouldn't change my mind because for all I know that could be your real pic. I hold alot of your previous posts in high regard and find them to be intelligent and informative. :)
 

massfd

Member
Has anyone installed a 6 or 8 circuit Generac transfer switch. They come with a prewired whip that contains hots out from the breakers on the original panel and hots returning from the 6 or 8 generac switches. Only 1 neutral in the whip to be landed on the original neutral bar. The original branch circuit neutrals remain in the original panel.

Is this not the same as the OP's question about a sub panel 12 inches away.

How do these things get approved, I see them all over the place. Better than backfeeding a breaker but does not comply with the NEC as quoted by others.
 

winnie

Senior Member
Location
Springfield, MA, USA
Occupation
Electric motor research
Ignoring avatars for a moment, and getting back to the question "What harm does it do to leave the neutrals in from circuits re located to an adjacent sub panel in the main panel?", IMHO Larry's post #5 is the key.

The potential harm of the installation described is inductive heating and EMF generation. If the current going out to the subpanel doesn't return via the same raceway, then you set up a magnetic loop (shorthand for a loop of unbalanced current enclosing an area and inducing a magnetic field in this area). If all of the enclosures and raceways were non-metallic, then this magnetic loop would just create some EMFs. If you have metallic raceways, then this loop will induce current flow in the raceways. If you have metallic panels but not metallic raceways, then you may have some current induced in the panel, but not much. If you have steel or magnetic panels (most are), then the magnetic qualities of the panels can cause inductive choke effects or increased heating effects, depending upon the precise setup.

If the relocated branch circuit conductors were to return to the main panel via the same raceway as the feeders to the subpanel, then this would not introduce a current loop that cuts raceways or different enclosure holes, and IMHO would not be a safety problem.

So there is a real cause for concern, if the conductors are not routed properly. Code in general prohibits the situations that cause incorrect routing, by requiring that all circuit conductors be run together. Code then has exceptions for cases where there is a known suitable alternate routing. I don't think that there is an explicit exception for the situation described by the OP.

-Jon
 

hillbilly

Senior Member
iaov said:
Avatars aside does anyone have an opinion about leaving EGC's in old panel/J-box.


Not a problem at all.

As long as the jumper between the (bonded) grounding terminal strips in each panel is properly sized (big enough), I don't see a problem.
Of course, properly installed steel conduit between the two panels will work too without a jumper.

Bonding and continuity of grounding is what's important.

As far as the OP's question...

If using a adjacent panel as a junction box (new panel installation)...The neutrals need to be extended to (and isolated from) the new panel.

If this is not done, there will be current flowing on the grounding jumper between the two panels as the grounding jumper and the neutrals will be in parallel.
This is not allowed per NEC 250.6(A) and 250.24(5).

Just my opinion
steve

Edit: I don't have a Avatar, so you'll just have to guess what I look like.
 

steelersman

Senior Member
Location
Lake Ridge, VA
massfd said:
Has anyone installed a 6 or 8 circuit Generac transfer switch. They come with a prewired whip that contains hots out from the breakers on the original panel and hots returning from the 6 or 8 generac switches. Only 1 neutral in the whip to be landed on the original neutral bar. The original branch circuit neutrals remain in the original panel.

Is this not the same as the OP's question about a sub panel 12 inches away.

How do these things get approved, I see them all over the place. Better than backfeeding a breaker but does not comply with the NEC as quoted by others.
I actually did that once just like you said and the inspector made me wirenut the neutrals to the neutrals in the whip for the corresponding circuits. And I didn't know or understand why because I didn't get to see the inspector. But now I know why. :)
 
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