NEC Article 830

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egnlsn

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NEC Article 830 covers CATV drops that carry network powering (for NIUs) and must be buried in accordance with the depths specified. If no network power is present, the drop is covered by Article 820. As always, it is best to check with the local AHJ.
 

don_resqcapt19

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Actually the NEC does not cover the CATV "drop" if by drop you mean the connection from the street to the building.
 

hbiss

EC, Westchester, New York NEC: 2014
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What post?

Article 830 covers CATV drops that carry network powering

Article 830 is specific as to the type of cables used. I have not seen any CATV drops that required the use of type BM or BL cables. If they did you would be correct. These cables are a combination of a coax (or fiber) and a number of power carrying conductors.

You can't just call a coax that has power on it a "network powered broadband communications cable" else all satellite installations would fall under the category.

-Hal
 

egnlsn

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don_resqcapt19 said:
Actually the NEC does not cover the CATV "drop" if by drop you mean the connection from the street to the building.
Under NEC definitions Section 830.2n a Network-Powered Broadband Telecommunications Circuit is defined as “The circuit extending from the communications utility’s serving terminal or tap up to and including the NIU.” Gotta get from the tap to the NIU somehow.

The FPN that goes along with that definition reads, "A typical single-family network-powered communications circuit consists of a communications drop or communications service cable and an NIU, and includes the communications utility's serving terminal or tap where it is not under exclusive control of the communications utility."

Not all cable companies use their systems to power customers' NIUs. If a cable system does use network powering for their NIUs, the drop cable they use is BMU rated.
 
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egnlsn

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hbiss said:
You can't just call a coax that has power on it a "network powered broadband communications cable" else all satellite installations would fall under the category.

-Hal
According to the NEC's definition of a Network-Powered Broadband Telecommunications Circuit, a communications utility is part of the circuit. Satellite installations have no communications utility connected to anything.
 

hbiss

EC, Westchester, New York NEC: 2014
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Ok, the FPN under 830.1 would seem to include coax carrying power on it's center conductor and having no other separate conductors.

I know of no CATV systems that put power on their drops (RG-6/11) for a residential application. Any equipment on the premises is locally powered. Hence you will not find any RG-6 or RG-11 with a BM listing.

Where line powered equipment is located on the premises, (multi-unit residential or commercial) it would normally be supplied by hard line and would fall under 90.2(B)(4) since it is under control of the utility, really an extension of the OSP. Hard line cable has no listing at all.

So I really don't know what kind of installation you are talking about here. The Code has many instances where there is no actual application.

-Hal
 
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egnlsn

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Many cable systems in North America have gone to 90 volt systems so they could provide power (including backup power and ringing voltage) to the NIUs, rather than rely on local power to power the device.

Really, only the local cable system knows if they do network powering to all of their devices. You can't tell just by looking at a cable whether there's a.c. on it or not.

Major cable manufacturers such as Times Fiber, CommScope and Belden manufacture such coax, and have for some time.
 

iwire

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egnlsn said:
NEC Article 830 covers CATV drops that carry network powering (for NIUs) and must be buried in accordance with the depths specified. If no network power is present, the drop is covered by Article 820. As always, it is best to check with the local AHJ.

Neither Article 830 or 820 has anything to do with the cables on the utility side of the demarcation point.

See 90.2(B)(4).
 

egnlsn

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iwire said:
Neither Article 830 or 820 has anything to do with the cables on the utility side of the demarcation point.

See 90.2(B)(4).
830-2 defines a Network-Powered Broadband Communications Circuit as ?The circuit extending from the communications utility?s serving terminal or tap up to and including the NIU.?

As referenced above, it does not include the tap or serving terminal. The tap or serving terminal is not the demarc. The tap or serving terminal is out in the pedestal or on the utility pole.
 

iwire

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Ed, I am not following you.

90.2(B)(4) puts all the utility controlled cabling outside the NEC meaning the burial depths are not applicable to utility controlled conductors.

This is no different then the NEC not applying to the power companies overhead service drop.
 

egnlsn

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iwire said:
Ed, I am not following you.

90.2(B)(4) puts all the utility controlled cabling outside the NEC meaning the burial depths are not applicable to utility controlled conductors.

This is no different then the NEC not applying to the power companies overhead service drop.
That's an interesting take on that. My first response would be that "exclusive control" refers to within the public utility easement. A person's yard is not a "space used exclusively for such installations," as described in 90-2(b)(4). If, in their yard, someone's drop (CATV) goes right through where they want to plant a tree or build a fence, they are free to move that drop to anywhere they want. The cable company does not have exclusive control of their yard. They don't even have exclusive control of the pathway the drop takes to their house. Not quite the same within an easement, though, where the utilities do have exclusive control. Same with Telco.

230-24 specifies minimum clearances for electrical service drops.
 
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iwire

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egnlsn said:
That's an interesting take on that.

Not just interesting .............. correct. :cool:


My first response would be that "exclusive control" refers to within the public utility easement. A person's yard is not a "space used exclusively for such installations," as described in 90-2(b)(4).

Your mixing 90.2(B)(4) up.

It is 'communications equipment located outside OR in building spaces under exclusive control'

Only the 'space' located inside has to be under the exclusive control of the utility.

The buried conductors are communications equipment under the exclusive control of the utility located outside.


If someone's drop (CATV) goes right through where they want to plant a tree or build a fence, they are free to move that drop to anywhere they want.

I am willing to bet that 'officially' that is false, might be even a Federal offense but I am sure it happens all the time.

230-24 specifies minimum clearances for electrical service drops.

Your right, it absolutely does, however that section of the NEC only applies to privately owned service drops, it does not apply to utility controlled drops.

If the official service point is at the pole then the NEC applies to the service drop or service lateral.

If the service point is at the weather head or at the meter then the NEC does not apply to service drop or lateral.
 

egnlsn

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iwire said:
Not just interesting .............. correct. :cool:
Not necessarily correct, but interesting.

There is nothing in a person's yard (other than the public utility easement) that is under the exclusive control of anyone other than the homeowner. If they call up the cable company and request service, they grant permission to that service provider to place equipment in their yard and on/in their house. That does not grant the service provider exclusive control over that portion of their yard or that portion of their house.

For cable systems, the tap is in the pedestal or on the utility pole. 830-2 defines a Network-Powered Broadband Communications Circuit as ?The circuit extending from the communications utility?s serving terminal or tap up to and including the NIU.? I don't know how much plainer that can be.

Cutting a drop certainly is not a federal offense. An inconvenience and an expense if it is your own, and trespassing and vandalism if it is someone else's, but by no means is it a federal offense.
 

iwire

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egnlsn said:
830-2 defines a Network-Powered Broadband Communications Circuit as ?The circuit extending from the communications utility?s serving terminal or tap up to and including the NIU.? I don't know how much plainer that can be.

And neither do I, 830 does not apply to the section from the pole to the home if it is under the utility control.

I suggest you read this

Charlie?s Rule of Technical Reading

It doesn?t say what you think it says, nor what you remember it to have said, nor what you were told that it says, and certainly not what you want it to say, and if by chance you are its author, it doesn?t say what you intended it to say. Then what does it say? It says what it says. So if you want to know what it says, stop trying to remember what it says, and don?t ask anyone else. Go back and read it, and pay attention as though you were reading it for the first time.

Then go back and read 90.2(B)(4).

Nothing else in the code applies if you can't get by section 90.2(B)


Cutting a drop certainly is not a federal offense.

Actually I believe the FCC would say otherwise.
 

LarryFine

Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
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Henrico County, VA
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I gotta be careful with how I phrase this:
egnlsn said:
If they call up the cable company and request service, they grant permission to that service provider to place equipment in their yard and on/in their house. That does not grant the service provider exclusive control over that portion of their yard or that portion of their house.
Okay, with this premise in mind, let's say that, for whatever reason, the cable is not buried the same day it's placed, but just laid on the ground.

Let's also say the little old lady trips over the cable on her way to her garden to pick some flowers. To whom does she scream out obscenities?
 

hbiss

EC, Westchester, New York NEC: 2014
Location
Hawthorne, New York NEC: 2014
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EC
If someone's drop (CATV) goes right through where they want to plant a tree or build a fence, they are free to move that drop to anywhere they want.

They are free to move it the same as they are free to move their buried service. Go ahead and try it but when you screw it up the utility is going to charge you.

I'm not buying your argument that:

Many cable systems in North America have gone to 90 volt systems so they could provide power (including backup power and ringing voltage) to the NIUs, rather than rely on local power to power the device.

That's not been my experience and I can only speak for two of the largest- Cablevision and Comcast. All of their EMTAs are local powered with UPSs. I'll ask over at the cable tech's forum if any of their system are doing this, I could be wrong but I doubt that many are and that's certainly not the reason for going to 90 volts from 60.

I can tell you that in a residential and small commercial setting the EMTA is usually something like a Motorola Surfboard combination voice and internet and is usually thrown behind a computer somewhere and connected to the premises RG-6 wiring along with the TVs. Not exactly the ideal for line powering from the street.

However if what you are talking about is an EMTA similar to the ONT that Verizon uses for Fios and it's installed on the side of the house, in the basement or similar, read and understand what Bob has been saying because it's all under the companies control. You yourself have been calling it an NIU which stands for Network Interface Unit. An NIU's purpose is to separate the utility companies equipment (and responsibility) from that of the subscriber. Everything to and including the NIU is the utility companies responsibility.

Keep in mind also that with CATV there is no absolute demarcation (except for voice wiring and data wiring) because the cable company maintains a degree of responsibility for wiring and equipment even within the premises.

Really, only the local cable system knows if they do network powering to all of their devices. You can't tell just by looking at a cable whether there's a.c. on it or not.

Believe me, I would know from the equipment. But I really don't know what your point is anyway. If you say that nobody would know then why are you arguing with us about Art. 830? We don't install the stuff. Go debate with the cable companies.

-Hal
 

don_resqcapt19

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egnlsn said:
Using that line of argument, incidents such as Modesto Zaps Comcast With $1M Fine wouldn't happen because the grounding violations cited were all part of the installations of their equipment, nor would cities spend their money on things such as A Physical Plant Safety Inspection
of Comcast Cable
.
It could be that the franchise agreement requires compliance with the NEC or the agreement itself specifies installation methods, but the NEC itself does not apply to that part of the cable system. Or maybe even the NESC has rules that apply.
 
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