Multiple GFI outlets tripping after a panel upgrade, Help!!!

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Hello, I just did a panel upgrade from a 100amp 120/240 single phase to a 200amp 120/240 single phase and about 2 weeks after the upgrade the client called and said that a lot of his GFI outlets are now tripping. I can not think with this as how GFIs work it should not matter what is feeding it as long as its 120 with a hot and neutral all should be well. But they trip now and then??? He said they where fine for about a week or so then he went out of town and came back a few days later and there where about 4 or 5 tripped. They where in the kitchen, bathroom garage and the landscape irrigation timer outlet outside. This I can't think with this a they work most of the time but after the panel change they have been tripping every so often.

ANY IDEAS WHY?? I have been doing electrical for some time but I have never ran iinto this and am having trouble thinking with it. :?I'm going to go to the house on Monday or Tuesday to try to figure this out!
 

GoldDigger

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Placerville, CA, USA
Occupation
Retired PV System Designer
Any MWBC's involved?
I can see that in the course of a panel upgrade some existing MWBCs might have been inadvertently switched from opposite phase to same phase breakers. That would overload the neutrals, but I don't see a way that it could be related to GFCI receptacles tripping.
Then again, I can't see any other reason either. :(
 

eHunter

Senior Member
I would start with the usual suspects, double check: any MWBCs, MWBC phasing, the main service neutral, neutral/ground bond connections, GEC connection, conductors pinched in NM clamps, loose circuit conductors, neutral/grounding conductors transposed, loose ECGs, etc...
Was there possible storm damage during that 2 week period?
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
If GFCI receptacles have anything connected to "feed thru" terminals, make certain there were no stray paths inadvertently made on any of the feed thru portion of the circuit. GFCI's with no feed thru loads should not give you this kind of trouble if they are in good working condition.

Was this a one time event or have they tripped repeatedly? Some surge event may have just coincidentally happened shortly after your panel change, and they tripped from inductive kickback, but that is more likely if it was just a one time event and not something that should happen repeatedly unless some contributing surge event is happening repeatedly.
 
Number of times they tripped

Number of times they tripped

The GFIs have tripped about 5 times over the last 2 months but this is about 5 different ones in different locations? I will check to see if the GFI Neutrals are wire nutted together then a tap to the line side of the GFI as this does not make sense on how they work as they would just have neutral in and hot in and that would be it even if the where on MWBC as long the 5ma is measured on what is going out and coming back in.

So any other ideas or things you think I should check besides what I want to do which is take them out and check how they are wired???
 

augie47

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Tennessee
Occupation
State Electrical Inspector (Retired)
Have you tried changing any of them out ?
There may have been some event that occurred while the client was out of town (lightning storm) that effects them.
If you change one or two out and the problem disappears contribute it to the electrical ghost. If the problem persists after you change one, then you would need to dig deeper.
 

GoldDigger

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Staff member
Location
Placerville, CA, USA
Occupation
Retired PV System Designer
Any other ideas on why these gifs would trip like this? Hopefully this has not stumped everyone!

Not clearly traceable to the panel changeout, but do you know whether all of the GFCIs that tripped have feed through loads? That is the best suggestion made so far. As to why the panel change might make a difference for feed through loads, it might have changed the capacitive coupling between wires which are located in the same conduit run as the feed through wiring, even if not in an MWBC. One wire from each phase coupling to hot or neutral of a third circuit in a conduit can have a different effect than two wires of the same phase coupling to a third wire in the same conduit.
A similar effect may happen from coupling of transient voltages or noise from light dimmers.
Do you still have the panel schedule from the old panel so that you can tell whether you have switched the phase of any branch circuits in the process? Outside of an MWBC that would have no effect on wire loading, but could mess up a GFCI through stray currents.

To fix the situation you could either move the circuits back to their original phase relationship or eliminate GFCI feedthroughs in favor of separate GFCI receptacles downstream. That may be the cheapest fix.
 

ELA

Senior Member
Occupation
Electrical Test Engineer
Are these gifs, GFIs, GFCI outlets or GFCI breakers?

Try turning on/off several loads on each circuit in question to see if you can cause the GFCI's to trip.

Is there a sub panel anywhere in this home?

Did the bonding point change when the service was changed?
 

sparkyrick

Senior Member
Location
Appleton, Wi
Was this a pre-existing condition and thats why the home owner went with a service upgrade, hoping it would go away?

Did you overtighten the cable clamps on the MN cable going into the panel? I found that once, causing a GFCI to intermittently trip.
 
eliminate GFCI feedthroughs

eliminate GFCI feedthroughs

No what do you mean "eliminate GFCI feedthroughs"? Are talking about other outlets that are on the load side of the GFI not the line side? Or if a neutral and hot time into the GFI and then come out via the same screw lug and I would eliminate this by removing them off the GFI and wire nutting them together with a tail that ties to the GFI LIne side only?

I ask as I dont think there are down stream outles feed off the GFIs except maybe the kitchen counter.

Thanks for helping me try to figure this out. I plan to go out there Tuesday and dig into this and also install some new GFIs in their place.
 

GoldDigger

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Placerville, CA, USA
Occupation
Retired PV System Designer
No what do you mean "eliminate GFCI feedthroughs"? Are talking about other outlets that are on the load side of the GFI not the line side?
Yes, I was talking about wiring extending from the load side to the GFCI to other outlets, whether they are receptacles or any other types of outlet, and whether there are any loads connected at the time of the trip or not. I am mostly concerned with capacitive current being fed into the wire(s) running from the load side of the GFCI outlet.
Sometimes the wiring gets a little strange if the place had been remodeled or upgraded by owner. I have seen a dining room fan/light combo fed from the load side of an outdoor GFCI receptacle because that happened to be the way the circuit ran before the original receptacle was replaced with a GFCI type.

If you see wires attached to the load side of any of the GFCIs, see if you can figure out in which direction they are going, and look for anything else that stops working if you trip the GFCI at the receptacle.
 

ghorwood

Member
Location
Houston, Texas
Anything plugged into them?

Anything plugged into them?

Do any of these have something plugged into them? Could be something that worked before the new GFIs were installed, because the old ones were defective, allowing the connected load to function. Now that you have installed new units, perhaps those loads are tripping the GFIs? This happened to me when upgrading Cristmas light receptacles. She was mad because many of her lights didn't work, wanted me to delete the GFIs. I bought her a couple of new cords to prove that her old cords were to blame. Told her getting shocked on the roof might cause her to fall. She was all lovey dovey after that.

If not, check all your neutral connections for looseness. Weird problems are usually neutral related.
 

cowboyjwc

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Simi Valley, CA
Stinger, we did have that big fire last week. Could have been something on the utility side. Though the fire wasn't really that close to where you are, but I don't know where you did the service change.

I would also check to make sure that any MWBC's are phased correctly. I write it up most often when splits or thin breakers are used. Instead of black / red, black / Red, it becomes black / black, Red / Red.

Not saying anyone doesn't know, but I got in a hurry once and did it my self.
 
still makes no sense!

still makes no sense!

I went the property and pulled out one gfi and it just Blade one romex running to it, no feed through connections just into the line side. So I changed out the GFI to a new one and will have the owner keep their eyes open as the phantom gfi trips happen a few weeks apart but its all of them?? And see if the new one tripped!

Anyone have any other ideas on why this would happen?

I'm a pretty knowlegdable electrician and this one is stumping me, might see if the other houses next door are having any problems like thus with their gfis to see if the city might gave spiked the area or a lightning strike etc? I hope so as not sure what to do next :huh:
 

tesi1

Member
Location
florida
tripping gfci's

tripping gfci's

are the gfci outlets the the ones which are designed to trip when the power goes out & must be reset each time the power is restored?
 
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