Winco tri-fuel generator

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goldstar

Senior Member
Location
New Jersey
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
Has anyone had any experience with these generators ?: http://www.electricgeneratorsdirect.com/Winco-HPS12000HE-Portable-Generator/p1187.html . I have several customers that don't want to go for the big $$ of an optional permanently installed standby unit and they don't want to store gasoline for a portable. These are obviously popular units because they're on back-order until September. Some of the things I'm trying to find out are :
  • With respect to plumbing codes - can a NG or LP gas line be run with a shut-off and a quick-connect type flexible hose connected to the unit ?
  • If so, where can you purchase such a hose ?
  • From what the instruction manual says you will need a regulator and gas solenoid (irrespective of whether it NG or LP) to shut the unit down in an emergency. Are these items readily available ? This site doesn't sell them.
  • The unit has a 45 amp, 240 volt output but comes with a 60 amp, 240 volt straight blade receptacle. This particular site only sells 50 amp power cords and outdoor receptacles. Is it permissible to use a 50 amp rated cord with a 60 amp plug on one end and a 50 amp female on the other ?
  • Has anyone used these with LP ? If so, what size tanks did you use ?
  • All the houses in consideration have NG but would consider having LP installed if running a NG line would pose a possible vioation

There are towns here in NJ that will either not allow stationary generators or in some cases will not allow them because NG gas pressure is so low.

Thanks
 

GoldDigger

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Placerville, CA, USA
Occupation
Retired PV System Designer
[*]All the houses in consideration have NG but would consider having LP installed if running a NG line would pose a possible vioation

One of the lessons learned from Sandy is that in a large event the NG may be shut down immediately and stay unavailable as long as the electricity is out or longer.
LPG is the preferred local fuel storage from a safety standpoint, but is more expensive that either NG or Gasoline.
A tri-fuel engine will have lower power output on LPG and on NG than on gasoline.
 

eHunter

Senior Member
Has anyone had any experience with these generators ?: http://www.electricgeneratorsdirect.com/Winco-HPS12000HE-Portable-Generator/p1187.html . I have several customers that don't want to go for the big $$ of an optional permanently installed standby unit and they don't want to store gasoline for a portable. These are obviously popular units because they're on back-order until September. Some of the things I'm trying to find out are :
  • With respect to plumbing codes - can a NG or LP gas line be run with a shut-off and a quick-connect type flexible hose connected to the unit ? Yes
  • If so, where can you purchase such a hose ? Local LPG dealer
  • From what the instruction manual says you will need a regulator and gas solenoid (irrespective of whether it NG or LP) to shut the unit down in an emergency. Are these items readily available ? This site doesn't sell them. Yes. Most local LPG suppliers have them.
  • The unit has a 45 amp, 240 volt output but comes with a 60 amp, 240 volt straight blade receptacle. This particular site only sells 50 amp power cords and outdoor receptacles. Is it permissible to use a 50 amp rated cord with a 60 amp plug on one end and a 50 amp female on the other ? IMO, No. Make your own, probably will be higher quality.
  • Has anyone used these with LP ? If so, what size tanks did you use ? Yes. 20( gas grill size), 30, 40, 100, 120 lb. cylinders. Above 40 lb cylinders can be more difficult to handle.
  • All the houses in consideration have NG but would consider having LP installed if running a NG line would pose a possible vioation. Get them setup to use either, don't limit your options.
Most tri-fuel gensets will produce slightly less KW on LPG, even slightly less on NG and most KW on gasoline.

There are towns here in NJ that will either not allow stationary generators or in some cases will not allow them because NG gas pressure is so low. Most small (<12KW units have modest NG pressure and volume requirements.
Thanks

Answers in red. And it is made in the USA!
 
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kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
There are towns here in NJ that will either not allow stationary generators or in some cases will not allow them because NG gas pressure is so low. Most small (<12KW units have modest NG pressure and volume requirements.
Local pressure issues is solved with regulator adjustments or sometimes additional regulators for specific appliances and raise the service pressure, but there is the possibility that gas suppliers do not have infrastructure to handle demand if too many people are running NG generators all at same time. Unlike heating systems that would cycle generators would be more of a constant demand, plus you may still have heating demands on top of that certain times of year.
 

eHunter

Senior Member
Local pressure issues is solved with regulator adjustments or sometimes additional regulators for specific appliances and raise the service pressure, but there is the possibility that gas suppliers do not have infrastructure to handle demand if too many people are running NG generators all at same time. Unlike heating systems that would cycle generators would be more of a constant demand, plus you may still have heating demands on top of that certain times of year.

Very true.
I agree that a NG fueled genset may not be the solution for every location.
The NG infrastructure in some areas is already strained under normal usage circumstances, add additional demand and possible leaks after a natural disaster and it could become totally inop.
Unlike gensets, most gas furnaces will operate with a lowered gas pressure(to a point), but will just deliver less BTU/h than the nameplate.
 

cowboyjwc

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Simi Valley, CA
One of the lessons learned from Sandy is that in a large event the NG may be shut down immediately and stay unavailable as long as the electricity is out or longer.
LPG is the preferred local fuel storage from a safety standpoint, but is more expensive that either NG or Gasoline.
A tri-fuel engine will have lower power output on LPG and on NG than on gasoline.

Here is CA some cities require "earthquake shut off valves" at the gas meter. Basically a ball bearing on a pedistal and if it shakes hard enough if drops and blocks the gas line and has to be reset by the gas compay, so a NG generator might not do you much good here either.
 

gadfly56

Senior Member
Location
New Jersey
Occupation
Professional Engineer, Fire & Life Safety
One of the lessons learned from Sandy is that in a large event the NG may be shut down immediately and stay unavailable as long as the electricity is out or longer.
LPG is the preferred local fuel storage from a safety standpoint, but is more expensive that either NG or Gasoline.
A tri-fuel engine will have lower power output on LPG and on NG than on gasoline.

I didn't hear a thing about that. We were without power for about a week and never had an issue with our natural gas supply. In fact, the only bright spot was that we were still able to take hot showers, as the hot water heater had a standing pilot, not "spark-start". The range was "spark-start", but an Aim-'n-Flame took care of that. Hot food and hot water can go a long way in easing the misery of no power.
 

goldstar

Senior Member
Location
New Jersey
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
Thanks for the replies. After doing some research and reading through the owner's manual I've been learning a lot about this type of LP generator. Here is an excerpt from the manual and some of the things I've learned :

LP/NG Fuel Connection Information
? All fuel lines must be installed by a qualified fuel supplier
? The fuel source should be as close as possible to the outdoor operating location
? Pressure supplied to the demand regulator should be 4 - 6 oz.?s or 7? - 11? water column
? A lockable fuel shut-off valve must be supplied at the connection point
? Units that are intended to be run unattended must have an electric fuel solenoid installed
? This solenoid MUST be wired to AUTOMATICALLY turn off the fuel whenever the engine stops
? DO NOT use galvanized pipe in the fuel line runs. The galvanized coating will become eroded and flake off, causing possible
obstruction or damage to the regulator or fuel valve. The obstruction could cause an inoperative engine or an explosive fuel leak.
? Size of pipe required for generators operating on natural gas/ LP gas.

Length of Fuel Line* Fuel Line Size
less than 25 feet 3/4 inch black pipe
25 to 100 feet 1 inch black pipe
over 100 feet not recommended (Consult factory for fuel runs over 100 feet)
*allow an additional 3 feet for each standard elbow. Do not use ?street ells? (restrictive)

? Unit location will determine the size of the fuel line that is required to supply the engine with a constant fuel pressure. For
distances of 100? or more a two regulator fuel system is required.


LP TANK SIZING

Once above the minimum acceptable size, the size of L.P. tank used will generally depend on how long you want the unit to run without refilling. The tank sizes shown below are the smallest recommended tank sizes based on the outside temperature. Keep in mind the colder it gets the slower L.P. will vaporize. This is the reason for the larger tanks at low
temperature. Minimum sizing is not based on running time.

Temp

60 deg f. - 150 gal
30 deg f. - 250 gal
0 deg f. - 500 gal
-20 deg f. - 1000 gal

NOTICE: TRI-FUEL STARTING

Tri-Fuel generators operating on vapor fuel, (either LP or NG) must be started using the electric start system provided. You cannot hand crank the unit fast enough to develop the proper vacuum to make the vapor fuel system work.
WHEN USING VAPOR FUEL NEVER USE THE CHOKE.

Use of the choke will prevent the air and fuel from properly mixing.
 

goldstar

Senior Member
Location
New Jersey
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
It's a good thing we have this forum to share ideas and and knowledge. I've been doing some more research on this unit and I've come to find out that LP companies (like Suburban Propane) WILL NOT connect a permanently installed LP tank to anything PORTABLE. That takes care of tanks over 60 lbs.. So, unless a HO is willing to go out and purchase his own 60 gallon tank or connect this type of generator to his barbecue grill tank (that would probably last about 2 hours), using this type of generator with a large capacity LP tank is not going to happen (at least not here in NJ).

In addition, irrespective of the amperage output available on these units, under no circumstances will it start and/or run a central AC unit. The only lure this unit has is that it's LP and you have the luxury of not having to store gasoline.

Another great idea down the drain :weeping:
 

mike7330

Senior Member
Location
North America
Suburban is the worst! Call some other propane companies!

Suburban is the worst! Call some other propane companies!

It's a good thing we have this forum to share ideas and and knowledge. I've been doing some more research on this unit and I've come to find out that LP companies (like Suburban Propane) WILL NOT connect a permanently installed LP tank to anything PORTABLE. That takes care of tanks over 60 lbs.. So, unless a HO is willing to go out and purchase his own 60 gallon tank or connect this type of generator to his barbecue grill tank (that would probably last about 2 hours), using this type of generator with a large capacity LP tank is not going to happen (at least not here in NJ).

In addition, irrespective of the amperage output available on these units, under no circumstances will it start and/or run a central AC unit. The only lure this unit has is that it's LP and you have the luxury of not having to store gasoline.

Another great idea down the drain :weeping:


You need to call some of the other small propane companies they are more reasonable to work with!
 

goldstar

Senior Member
Location
New Jersey
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
You need to call some of the other small propane companies they are more reasonable to work with!
I suppose I can try Yankee Propane but I understand Suburban's position and it's a liability issue. I've had the same responses from plumbers regarding NG lines for portables.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
It's a good thing we have this forum to share ideas and and knowledge. I've been doing some more research on this unit and I've come to find out that LP companies (like Suburban Propane) WILL NOT connect a permanently installed LP tank to anything PORTABLE. That takes care of tanks over 60 lbs.. So, unless a HO is willing to go out and purchase his own 60 gallon tank or connect this type of generator to his barbecue grill tank (that would probably last about 2 hours), using this type of generator with a large capacity LP tank is not going to happen (at least not here in NJ).

In addition, irrespective of the amperage output available on these units, under no circumstances will it start and/or run a central AC unit. The only lure this unit has is that it's LP and you have the luxury of not having to store gasoline.

Another great idea down the drain :weeping:


Define portable. 100 lb propane tanks for portable items is pretty common around here. I have one I use for a 250,000 BTU space heater. Propane powered vehicles have much more than 60 gallon tank and are definitely portable.

Anybody that says 100 lb tank is too heavy must not work with heavy tools and equipment, large reels of conductors, steel raceways - especially larger sizes of rigid/IMC even if only on occasion. The propane tank is nothing compared to some of those items.
 

goldstar

Senior Member
Location
New Jersey
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
The last time I purchased a propane heater the LP company I bought from wouldn't sell me greater than a 60 gallon tank unless I was able to transport it vertically. I wasn't able to do that with a Ford E250. Based on what the Winco's owner's manual says whoever uses one of these generators shouldn't consider using anything less than a 150 gal. tank in temperature ranges of 30 degrees. I can't tell from the chart if it's 30-60 or 0-30.

I'll try Yankee Propane and see if they're more lenient with their installations. I'll let you know how I make out.
 

GoldDigger

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Placerville, CA, USA
Occupation
Retired PV System Designer
Based on what the Winco's owner's manual says whoever uses one of these generators shouldn't consider using anything less than a 150 gal. tank in temperature ranges of 30 degrees. I can't tell from the chart if it's 30-60 or 0-30.
Temp

60 deg f. - 150 gal
30 deg f. - 250 gal
0 deg f. - 500 gal
-20 deg f. - 1000 gal


Basically, they are saying that exactly at those temps, the size tank shown is the minimum.
From there, you can figure that if the temp is higher, that size will for sure be big enough. So 500 gal is minimum for exactly 0F. And 500 will be fine for anything higher. When you get to 30F, you can reduce the size to 250. In practice, somewhere in between but closer to 30 than to 0 you would be OK with a 300 gal tank; they just do not give you those numbers. If you have nothing to work from but their table and are not allowed to interpolate, then 150 is good only at 60F and above. (Lower outside temp is OK if you can keep the tank warmer, but that means more than just insulating it well because you have to supply heat to the tank to vaporize the propane the genny is using.)
In some specialized cases it may be possible to draw liquid from the tank to a heat exchanger that is kept warm by the benny, but that requires some engineering. Even then you need enough heat to the tank to keep the internal pressure high enough to move the liquid. But that is not much of a restriction at all.
 

mengelman

Member
Location
East Texas
60A receptacle?

60A receptacle?

Has anyone had any experience with these generators ?: http://www.electricgeneratorsdirect.com/Winco-HPS12000HE-Portable-Generator/p1187.html . I have several customers that don't want to go for the big $$ of an optional permanently installed standby unit and they don't want to store gasoline for a portable. These are obviously popular units because they're on back-order until September. Some of the things I'm trying to find out are :
  • With respect to plumbing codes - can a NG or LP gas line be run with a shut-off and a quick-connect type flexible hose connected to the unit ?
  • If so, where can you purchase such a hose ?
  • From what the instruction manual says you will need a regulator and gas solenoid (irrespective of whether it NG or LP) to shut the unit down in an emergency. Are these items readily available ? This site doesn't sell them.
  • The unit has a 45 amp, 240 volt output but comes with a 60 amp, 240 volt straight blade receptacle. This particular site only sells 50 amp power cords and outdoor receptacles. Is it permissible to use a 50 amp rated cord with a 60 amp plug on one end and a 50 amp female on the other ?
  • Has anyone used these with LP ? If so, what size tanks did you use ?
  • All the houses in consideration have NG but would consider having LP installed if running a NG line would pose a possible vioation

There are towns here in NJ that will either not allow stationary generators or in some cases will not allow them because NG gas pressure is so low.

Thanks



I have never seen a 60A straight blade receptacle. What configuration and NEMA number is this?
 
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