Wall space and receptacle outlets SRF

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benaround

Senior Member
Location
Arizona
Washington State is scheduled to adopt the 2008 NEC, with its own amendments, at the end of the year. The amendments (a draft version of which has been published) address this issue. They say that a built-in bookcase is not a wall space. But they also say that any receptacles that are eliminated (i.e., because the bookcase has taken the place of a wall) must be installed somewhere else in the room.


You could put in some nice looking " cord drops " to accent the walnut wood grain. :)
 

wbalsam1

Senior Member
Location
Upper Jay, NY
Washington State is scheduled to adopt the 2008 NEC, with its own amendments, at the end of the year. The amendments (a draft version of which has been published) address this issue. They say that a built-in bookcase is not a wall space. But they also say that any receptacles that are eliminated (i.e., because the bookcase has taken the place of a wall) must be installed somewhere else in the room.

I, too, fail to understand how a built-in bookcase can be misconstrued as usable wall space. The requirement by amendment to install the "eliminated" receptacles elsewhere in the room is ridiculous. Other areas of the room that meet the requirements for receptacles would otherwise be served as per code and the additional receptacles would only be redundant and an additional unnecessary expense. :smile:
 
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iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
I, too, fail to understand how a built-in bookcase can be misconstrued as usable wall space.

Where does the NEC say usable wall space? :smile:

Some questions.

1) A wall from floor to ceiling 12' long is built of studs and drywall.

Receptacles required yes or no?

2) A wall from floor to ceiling 12' long is built of studs and drywall. I buy shelf brackets and install a single shelf to hold books.

Edit: add example.
dogtable2sm.jpg


Receptacles required yes or no?



3) A wall from floor to ceiling 12' long is built of studs and drywall. I buy shelf brackets and install a single shelf to hold books. I end up buying a lot more books so I buy several shelf brackets adding enough shelves to cover the wall with books.

Edit to add example

Wall%20Shelving%204in%20Shelves.JPG


Receptacles required yes or no?

4) A wall from floor to ceiling 12' long is built of studs and drywall. I buy shelf brackets and install a single shelf to hold books. I end up buying a lot more books so I buy several shelf brackets adding enough shelves to cover the wall with books.. Now I decide to take some pine and add some vertical sections to break up the long shelves into more manageable sections.

Edit to add example
Ross_shelves_520.jpg



Receptacles required yes or no?

5)My next home I have the architect include the same size and shape built in book cases.

Receptacles required yes or no?
 
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charlie b

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Lockport, IL
Occupation
Retired Electrical Engineer
The requirement by amendment to install the "eliminated" receptacles elsewhere in the room is ridiculous.
Yea, I agree. It's ridiculous. Even more so because the wording basically says that you don't need receptacles in those areas. It does not say that a "required receptacle can be eliminated." So which one are the ones I have to install elsewhere? :confused:
 

charlie b

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Lockport, IL
Occupation
Retired Electrical Engineer
Where does the NEC say usable wall space?
It doesn?t, of course. But it does say ?wall space.?
Some questions.
My answers are, in order, yes, yes, yes, yes, and no.


The difference is that for your first four examples, you started by saying ?studs and drywall.? As soon as you mention ?drywall,? you brought in the requirement for receptacles. It is the drywall that becomes ?wall space.? As soon as you install the drywall, you better have already had your rough in inspection for the required receptacles. But a built-in bookcase does not create wall space.

There was a recent, related question, in which the OP was in disagreement with a state inspector. It was a kitchen (or what I would call a ?butler?s pantry?), with the upper cabinets extending all the way down to the countertop surface. The inspector wanted receptacles (built somehow into the upper cabinets, perhaps) to serve the (9 inch deep) countertop areas. The OP was concerned that it would not be safe to place a coffee pot or other appliance on that small a space. My reply was that the rule is not about serving countertops. The rule is about receptacles being required in wall counter spaces. In the butler?s pantry design, there is no wall behind the countertop. My opinion was, and still is, that that situation did not involve ?wall counter spaces,? and therefore no receptacles were required.
 

steelersman

Senior Member
Location
Lake Ridge, VA
It doesn?t, of course. But it does say ?wall space.?
My answers are, in order, yes, yes, yes, yes, and no.

The difference is that for your first four examples, you started by saying ?studs and drywall.? As soon as you mention ?drywall,? you brought in the requirement for receptacles. It is the drywall that becomes ?wall space.? As soon as you install the drywall, you better have already had your rough in inspection for the required receptacles. But a built-in bookcase does not create wall space.

There was a recent, related question, in which the OP was in disagreement with a state inspector. It was a kitchen (or what I would call a ?butler?s pantry?), with the upper cabinets extending all the way down to the countertop surface. The inspector wanted receptacles (built somehow into the upper cabinets, perhaps) to serve the (9 inch deep) countertop areas. The OP was concerned that it would not be safe to place a coffee pot or other appliance on that small a space. My reply was that the rule is not about serving countertops. The rule is about receptacles being required in wall counter spaces. In the butler?s pantry design, there is no wall behind the countertop. My opinion was, and still is, that that situation did not involve ?wall counter spaces,? and therefore no receptacles were required.
I would have to agree with you on this post. The first 4 should have receptacles but not the last one. And also with the countertop that has no wall space behind it. It should not be required to have outlets.
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
The difference is that for your first four examples, you started by saying ?studs and drywall.? As soon as you mention ?drywall,? you brought in the requirement for receptacles. It is the drywall that becomes ?wall space.? As soon as you install the drywall, you better have already had your rough in inspection for the required receptacles. But a built-in bookcase does not create wall space.

Well I could mention that step one of building built in in cabinetry is usually the hanging of drywall... :smile:

But honestly I see this as a gray area and there is no standard answer. :smile:

As I said, as an EC I would strongly suggest to the customer to put receptacles in, the toe kick seems like a great solution.

It is rare an installed receptacle is not appreciated at some point.
 

Dennis Alwon

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Chapel Hill, NC
Occupation
Retired Electrical Contractor
the toe kick seems like a great solution.

Lately I have done some installs in the toes space with these. We have seen them before but I fell they are worth posting again. Sillites

They were suppose to be making them TR type also. I will have to call again and see what is up with that.

Gallery10.jpg
 

wbalsam1

Senior Member
Location
Upper Jay, NY
A built-in bookcase is a complete entity unto itself. It is an intrinsic structure not dependent on shelves added to a wall at a later date. As such it is not subject to the receptacle placement rule that applies to wall space. :smile:
 

jwelectric

Senior Member
Location
North Carolina
I know this is probably stupid but look who?s asking the question

Would it be alright to have books on the bookshelf that had pictures of receptacles in them?

How about if the bookshelf had a couple of code books on it?

Last but not leastly how about if I just laid a couple of duplexes on the shelf?
 

charlie b

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Lockport, IL
Occupation
Retired Electrical Engineer
As I said, as an EC I would strongly suggest to the customer to put receptacles in, the toe kick seems like a great solution. It is rare an installed receptacle is not appreciated at some point.
I agree completely, and would suggest the same as a design engineer (or as an Electrical Administrator). I also agree the code language is unclear. Let's see if they make any changes this time.
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
A built-in bookcase is a complete entity unto itself. It is an intrinsic structure not dependent on shelves added to a wall at a later date. As such it is not subject to the receptacle placement rule that applies to wall space. :smile:

I sure would like to see where the NEC explains that. :D
 

M. D.

Senior Member
I thought I did :-?

M. D. said:
Bob , do you have the same opinion of cabinets that take the place or occupy the space in front of walls as well ???
__________________
Your response.

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I would push for receptacles to be installed. :D

You then wrote in reply to Charlie

Iwire said:
Press me on wall cabinets instead of bookshelves and I will fold like a cheap tent.

I guess you can fold like a cheap tent some of the the time ,..but you can't fold like a cheap tent all of the time???
 
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