moving gfic outlet

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480sparky

Senior Member
Location
Iowegia
It does say at least one outlet. But not all outlets have to be 20 amp.
I don't think I've ever installed a 20a recep in a dwelling bathroom.
mw_hmmm.gif
 

cmesaw

Member
Let me clarify.
210.11. (c)(1) small appliance . I am sure you know it.
210.50 (b)(1 )says using the circuits required by 210.11 (c)(1)

now read 210.11 (c) (3)
then read 210.50 (D) Bathrooms
It does not say "using the circuits required by 210.11 (c)(3)
 

Jim W in Tampa

Senior Member
Location
Tampa Florida
For whatever its worth . YES a NEW receptacle in a bathroom does require 20 amps dedicated to bathroom receptacles or meet the exceptions. That is black and white.

Issue here is only about moving existing to another location. This is not covered by nec. It has no nec violation number. Only think in the way is if we call this NEW. This cant be won by using nec for simple reason that nec has no power without local ahj making the call. I am of the low side saying allowed. This argument can not be won my be or others. I stated my opinion others have theres , neither of us have nec behind us. That being the case just how can an inspector fail it lacking a code number.Nec says nothing about moving existing. If it was me i would do as DEMANDED by the ahj and the file lawsuit for my heavily padded bill. They are not god and they will look like an idiot in court. Yes you can sue the big brother
 

LawnGuyLandSparky

Senior Member
Was it a violation before moved ? Depending on year of code at time it likely was not a violation. So no its not reinstalling a violation.

True, it might not have been a violation before the work began.

But he fixed it anyways and likely out of pocked.

After all is said and done, he walked away with money in his pocket. What he did wasn't charity.

What he was trying to do is relocate the receptacle not install an extra. Where in NEC does it say we cant move existing without bringing it code year now in effect. Actually nec cant say what year to inforce. That is up to the ahj.

What's up to the AHJ is that in the course of a renovation, with a permit, when a NEW C/O is issued upon completion, is that the work is up to the enforcable code of the day.
 

LawnGuyLandSparky

Senior Member
A new wall does not equal a new outlet. What i see here is an EC making a bid to simply move the wires, box,receptacle,plate cover to a NEW location.

You mean he's going to re-use old electrical stuff? Violation.

Only thing new is the wall itself. Now if he was changing the wire then no argument it would be new. But he did not change the CIRCUIT. Now he is back and likely doing a half day job for free ,buying wire,adding breaker. What are chances that a panel even still had a spare slot. This 1 hour job has got costly. Any other bathrooms will remain as they were and work fine but now over something as silly as moving it to another spot we are bringing it new code. This is a disservice. that only runs the bill up.

It doens't only run the bill up. It puts the new bathroom into compliance with it's new C of O. The rest of the bathrooms and outdoor outlets just got better by removing one offending load.

If code requires the toilet get a 3" drain, and it's discovered that there's only a 2 & 1/2" drain when the floors are exposed, wouldn't you expect the drain to be corrected?
 

LawnGuyLandSparky

Senior Member
For whatever its worth . YES a NEW receptacle in a bathroom does require 20 amps dedicated to bathroom receptacles or meet the exceptions. That is black and white.

Issue here is only about moving existing to another location. This is not covered by nec.

That's because there is no such thing as "relocating." In construction, that's demo and install new... not "move it over there."

It has no nec violation number. Only think in the way is if we call this NEW. This cant be won by using nec for simple reason that nec has no power without local ahj making the call. I am of the low side saying allowed. This argument can not be won my be or others. I stated my opinion others have theres , neither of us have nec behind us. That being the case just how can an inspector fail it lacking a code number.Nec says nothing about moving existing. If it was me i would do as DEMANDED by the ahj and the file lawsuit for my heavily padded bill. They are not god and they will look like an idiot in court. Yes you can sue the big brother

But you'd lose. A receptacle on a wall that never existed before is NEW, even if you re-used the old box, coverplate & device. The old receptacle is gone, even the wll it was on is gone, even though the device and cover & box were reincarnated elsewhere on the premisis.
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
I don't know of any violation created in reusing 'old equipment' assuming it meets current standards and is in good shape.

But regardless of using new or old equipment it is new work.
 

billdozier

Senior Member
Location
gulf coast
After reading this tread I ave to agree with ol Tazz. How is it new work. The circuit is existing it is just being rerouted to a different wall. If the old wire were damaged and he had to replace it I could see the circuit being changed. This is not what we have in his situation. Also how is it not out of pocket work? If the ec put a bid on the job he now loses money. Can he really charge homeowner for a changeorder thanks to Mr inspector?
 

Jim W in Tampa

Senior Member
Location
Tampa Florida
Well this situation can't be won by using nec. Nec does not say anything about relocation. It comes down to if the ahj calls it what it actually is or simply calls it new. We can remove an old receptacle and reconnect it with no violation, we can also replace a broken plastic box with no violation. So now that we removed the plate cover, receptacle,wires and replace the broken box and reinstall everything is this now NEW.
I am of opinion that what the op did was fine, others don't. Neither of us can win this one. AHJ often wins because it is too costly and time consuming to fight them.
Yes this one outlet is now much better depending on what it gets used for.
Hate to think how you would handle a panel changeout, guess you now bring everything in house up to code unless you can find exact same panel and don't change its location.

If a customer asked you to bid on what the op had and you tried to tell them it will need a new wire ran all the way back to the panel and will take 2 men half a day and cost is $500 and you will need a patch man and painter at another $200 just what do you think they will tell you ? This kind of thing is why handymen get so many jobs. You just cost the customer an extra $500 and they are stuck because they did this job with a permit.
 

Jim W in Tampa

Senior Member
Location
Tampa Florida
New wall new location.

IMO that is in fact new work.

If it is not then when do we ever do new work?

As far as the EC loosing money that is not the inspectors fault, that is the ECs fault for not planing on following the code.

new wall seems to be where we are stuck. What if he had simply moved it 3 feet to another existing wall ? Would that change your answer ?

new wall yes
new location yes
old and same receptacle yes

It's ok Bob ,we often don't agree
 

LawnGuyLandSparky

Senior Member
Well this situation can't be won by using nec. Nec does not say anything about relocation. It comes down to if the ahj calls it what it actually is or simply calls it new. We can remove an old receptacle and reconnect it with no violation, we can also replace a broken plastic box with no violation. So now that we removed the plate cover, receptacle,wires and replace the broken box and reinstall everything is this now NEW.
I am of opinion that what the op did was fine, others don't. Neither of us can win this one. AHJ often wins because it is too costly and time consuming to fight them.
Yes this one outlet is now much better depending on what it gets used for.
Hate to think how you would handle a panel changeout, guess you now bring everything in house up to code unless you can find exact same panel and don't change its location.

If a customer asked you to bid on what the op had and you tried to tell them it will need a new wire ran all the way back to the panel and will take 2 men half a day and cost is $500 and you will need a patch man and painter at another $200 just what do you think they will tell you ? This kind of thing is why handymen get so many jobs. You just cost the customer an extra $500 and they are stuck because they did this job with a permit.


OK, so, I bought a house built in 1964 and I'm gutting it, changing the layout a bit, and moving windows / doors, etc... According to your logic I can simply unlace all the old silvery-black Nm with undersized ground, and reinstall all the old metal nail-right-through-the-box (so no device larger than a simple switch or receptacle fits) onto the new 2x4 studs, and just say that there is NO new electrical work in the house, it's all just been relocated onto the new walls...

I do not need another 20a circuit for the bath, I can retain the one 20a circuit that fed the diningroom and kitchen and not add another, keep the fridge on the hallway/ bedroom 15a circuit, and the washer dryer in the basement can remain on the kitchen SABC...
 

electricmanscott

Senior Member
Location
Boston, MA
OK, so, I bought a house built in 1964 and I'm gutting it, changing the layout a bit, and moving windows / doors, etc... According to your logic I can simply unlace all the old silvery-black Nm with undersized ground, and reinstall all the old metal nail-right-through-the-box (so no device larger than a simple switch or receptacle fits) onto the new 2x4 studs, and just say that there is NO new electrical work in the house, it's all just been relocated onto the new walls...

I do not need another 20a circuit for the bath, I can retain the one 20a circuit that fed the diningroom and kitchen and not add another, keep the fridge on the hallway/ bedroom 15a circuit, and the washer dryer in the basement can remain on the kitchen SABC...

This is correct, in the book of Jim. ;)
 

Jim W in Tampa

Senior Member
Location
Tampa Florida
OK, so, I bought a house built in 1964 and I'm gutting it, changing the layout a bit, and moving windows / doors, etc... According to your logic I can simply unlace all the old silvery-black Nm with undersized ground, and reinstall all the old metal nail-right-through-the-box (so no device larger than a simple switch or receptacle fits) onto the new 2x4 studs, and just say that there is NO new electrical work in the house, it's all just been relocated onto the new walls...

I do not need another 20a circuit for the bath, I can retain the one 20a circuit that fed the diningroom and kitchen and not add another, keep the fridge on the hallway/ bedroom 15a circuit, and the washer dryer in the basement can remain on the kitchen SABC...

Your pushing this way out proportion. If this house was gutted i am sure the op would have ran a dedicated circuit.
 
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