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I'm pretty sure i know the answer to this , or at least i thought i did. I was at work yesterday and my partner is telling me that when he pulls homeruns from a panel (residential work) he normally uses #12 awg. I said ok no big deal if your not concerned about the cost, but he then told me he changes over to #14awg. So i told him i don't think that was ok,but i couldn't give a code ref. He agreed but said he was told by his neighbor who is a licensed electrician in N.J that it's okay and he does it all the time .
 

480sparky

Senior Member
Location
Iowegia
But what i was worried about is the next guy coming in because the owner is complaining the 15 amp breaker is tripping ,so he sees that it's 12 awg and just replaces the 15 amp with a 20 amp breaker.

The 'next guy' should (theoretically) be someone who knows better than that. Oversized wires are common in industrial and commercial, and even in some dwellings. So the 'next guy' should be more than aware of that possibility.
 

infinity

Moderator
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Location
New Jersey
Occupation
Journeyman Electrician
But what i was worried about is the next guy coming in because the owner is complaining the 15 amp breaker is tripping ,so he sees that it's 12 awg and just replaces the 15 amp with a 20 amp breaker.


That is always possible, but there is no general provision in the NEC to prevent a #12 conductor on a 15 amp circuit regardless of what someone might do in the future.
 

jeremysterling

Senior Member
Location
Austin, TX
But what i was worried about is the next guy coming in because the owner is complaining the 15 amp breaker is tripping ,so he sees that it's 12 awg and just replaces the 15 amp with a 20 amp breaker.

Unfortunately, this may happen. The same thing can happen if the FCU says max OCPD 15A, and you pull 12AWG due to the length of the circuit (voltage drop). If the 15A bkr trips, someone may think it is OK to install a 20A bkr. Without looking at the nameplate of the FCU, they can mistakenly use the wrong OCPD, if they go only by conductor size and do not consider the whole circuit, that is, the OCPD, the conductors and the load.
 

cadpoint

Senior Member
Location
Durham, NC
But what i was worried about is the next guy coming in because the owner is complaining the 15 amp breaker is tripping ,so he sees that it's 12 awg and just replaces the 15 amp with a 20 amp breaker.

Good Point but let's say that a good electricain would not just change it out, and give themselves a moment before just changing over a breaker size!

Can we also assume that a load summary of some sorts needs to be done, alone with other things to understand
from the cause and effect of the subject matter in question here! Yes, No, maybe... Maybe Not, YES, your correct, well maybe, I don't know!

IT's such a what, when , why moment, yes the electrician could well change the Breaker, But if nothing else is it, or shouldn't it be, that hopefully an electricain's with vast knowledge understands, "Why am I changing a Breaker"!
 
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That is always possible, but there is no general provision in the NEC to prevent a #12 conductor on a 15 amp circuit regardless of what someone might do in the future.

I think this is a little off from what i was asking. I know you can put a #12 wire on a 15 amp circuit. I just thought i had read somewhere on this forum that it wasn't ok to to continue a circuit with 14wire when it started with 12 out of the panel. I'm probably confusing it with something else but that is why i ask questions. I will never hesitate to learn something new .Thank you for your responses.
 

480sparky

Senior Member
Location
Iowegia
I think this is a little off from what i was asking. I know you can put a #12 wire on a 15 amp circuit. I just thought i had read somewhere on this forum that it wasn't ok to to continue a circuit with 14wire when it started with 12 out of the panel. I'm probably confusing it with something else but that is why i ask questions. I will never hesitate to learn something new .Thank you for your responses.

Oversizing the conductor for voltage drop is common practice. As long as every conductor in the circuit is protected by a breaker or fuse no larger than allowed, the entire circuit is protected legally. You could start out with 10, or even 8, if you so desired. But as soon as there's 14 somewhere in the line, the max. OCPD is 15amps.
 
Oversizing the conductor for voltage drop is common practice. As long as every conductor in the circuit is protected by a breaker or fuse no larger than allowed, the entire circuit is protected legally. You could start out with 10, or even 8, if you so desired. But as soon as there's 14 somewhere in the line, the max. OCPD is 15amps.

I gotta apologize ,been rolling out of bed at 4 am all week and my brain is a little fried. I knew all this but for some reason i was just over thinking this whole thing. Sorry i wasted your time.
 

480sparky

Senior Member
Location
Iowegia
.........Sorry i wasted your time.

Who implied you wasted our time? That's why we're all here... to learn. I can't see where learning is a waste of time.
leer.gif
 

cadpoint

Senior Member
Location
Durham, NC
There is no waste of time here... It's a TEAM effort = Together wE All Achievie (more)... Don't get your Jet Line get in a wad!!

:roll: Team, Team !!!
 
There is no waste of time here... It's a TEAM effort = Together wE All Achievie (more)... Don't get your Jet Line get in a wad!!

:roll: Team, Team !!!
Whoa fellas , no jet line in a wad here, i was simply apologizing because i felt like a bonehead . Boy i didn't think a simple apology would turn so bad. I wasn't being sarcastic , just a poor choice of words i guess.
 

cadpoint

Senior Member
Location
Durham, NC
Whoa fellas , no jet line in a wad here, i was simply apologizing because i felt like a bonehead . Boy i didn't think a simple apology would turn so bad. I wasn't being sarcastic , just a poor choice of words i guess.


When Some one say's "hey go straight", no I'll Correct them and say, "Well let's Go Forward".
 

mivey

Senior Member
Whoa fellas , no jet line in a wad here, i was simply apologizing because i felt like a bonehead . Boy i didn't think a simple apology would turn so bad. I wasn't being sarcastic , just a poor choice of words i guess.
Nothing bad at all. We are not that tender.

You did not say anything to get anyone's feelings hurt, they were just trying to encourage you to keep posting and did not want you to feel you were wasting anyone's time.

Besides, a lot of these guys seem to have plenty of time to waste anyway as I can't see how they can keep up with the threads here and post as much as they do.:D
 

PetrosA

Senior Member
A required example

A required example

I've been doing a kitchen that has 21 circuits, lighting, appliances and recepts. All the appliance spec sheets list 15A fusing, but since it's a kitchen, we have to wire all recepts with 12-2. So we have a sub panel filled with 12-2s and maybe four or five 20A breakers. If something required a 10A breaker, we'd use that...
 

wawireguy

Senior Member
I'd probably mark the #12 in the panel with a label noting that #14 is used at the end of the run or something along that line.
 

PetrosA

Senior Member
.......... All the appliance spec sheets list 15A fusing, ........quote]

Are they specing 15a fused circuits, or 15a circuits minimum?

15A fused circuits. There aren't many built-in appliances in a resi kitchen that would need a 20A circuit, and I think it makes a lot of sense to protect the appliances with lower amperage breakers. I wouldn't be surprised if at some point we start seeing demand for 5, 6 or 10 amp fusing since the producers know that most of the US requires individual lines to be run to appliances. Who knows... fusing them closer to what they really need might even save some appliances from major damage in fault situations.
 
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