garbage disposal & under cabinet receptacle

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CopperTone

Senior Member
Location
MetroWest, MA
I bid a job recently and I believe we are going to be awarded it. The job essentially is to install a 20amp 120v circuit from the panel to the kitchen for a garbage disposal in 70 units. install a shut off switch on the wall then under the sink install a single 20a rated receptacle then come off the single receptacle box with a whip to hard wire the garbage disposal. the switch will shut off both the single receptacle and the garbage disposal.

the spec calls for GFI protection of the circuit and for the receptacle to be a 20a single receptacle.
I can't find anywhere in the code book that says this circuit has to be GFI protected (the receptacle is under the sink) and I want to substitute a duplex 15a receptacle.

Deleting the gfi protection and installing a duplex 15A receptacle would save me about $30 each unit. I want to propose this at submittal time with no change in contract price - what do you guys think?

or at least install a duplex GFI receptacle 15A under the sink.
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
There is no NEC / MEC requirement for the under counter receptacle to be GFCI protected.

However if you install a single receptacle on a 20 amp circuit it must be a 20 amp receptacle. See 210.21(B)(1).



I really do not understand why they want a switched receptacle and a hardwired GD.

Are you sure they just don't want a cord and plug installed on the GD?:confused:
 

CopperTone

Senior Member
Location
MetroWest, MA
There is no NEC / MEC requirement for the under counter receptacle to be GFCI protected.

However if you install a single receptacle on a 20 amp circuit it must be a 20 amp receptacle. See 210.21(B)(1).



I really do not understand why they want a switched receptacle and a hardwired GD.

Are you sure they just don't want a cord and plug installed on the GD?:confused:

that is my understanding as well. I do not understand why they want the GD and single receptacle switched - the GD will be hard wired not cord and plugged. I asked the architect when I bid this but they didn't have a good answer - they said the engineer designed it according to code so just bid it that way. So I did that but now if I can save 2k on material I want to do that and put in in my pocket.
 

480sparky

Senior Member
Location
Iowegia
If the specs call for both a hardwire disposal and a recep, both GFI protected, that's what you bid on and that's what you must provide. You can't just say, "Well, it's wired to code, and I'm allowed to pocket the difference".

If you paid a roofer for a steel or tile roof, and got 20-year ashpalt shingles, would you be happy?
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
If the specs call for both a hardwire disposal and a recep, both GFI protected, that's what you bid on and that's what you must provide. You can't just say, "Well, it's wired to code, and I'm allowed to pocket the difference".

I don't think he is trying to pull a fast one, I don't think he is trying to hide it from the customer.
 

Twoskinsoneman

Senior Member
Location
West Virginia, USA NEC: 2020
Occupation
Facility Senior Electrician
to be honest this sounds absurd. Would use could a receptacle possibly be that is only energized for the for seconds the disposal is on?

The other point is I kinda agree with 480 in the sense that you agreed to put in a safety device (GFCI) and if you decide to change that I would only do so with written confirmation.

If something weird did happens and someone gets hurt and they had a document that stated CopperTone (if that IS your real name:rolleyes:) was supposed to protect the circuit with GFCI...could be trouble.
 

JohnJ0906

Senior Member
Location
Baltimore, MD
to be honest this sounds absurd. Would use could a receptacle possibly be that is only energized for the for seconds the disposal is on?

.

The only thing that occurs to me would be for possible future replacement of the disposal with a cord-and-plug model. But then, it would be simpler to just spec one now.
 

CopperTone

Senior Member
Location
MetroWest, MA
of course the change would have to be approved. the way the spec was written doesn't seem to make sense to me thats all - and if I can save money then where is the harm?

I hope that the disposal is a batch fed meaning you need the cover to be pushed in and the disposal comes on - this will allow you to leave the switch on at all times and the receptacle will work at all times.

yes, I bid it that way and i will install it that way unless i can get them to agree that their spec was uneccessary and I can save some money in the process.
 

Jim W in Tampa

Senior Member
Location
Tampa Florida
See no reason for the receptacle unless garbage disposal had a cord. That would be smarter for service and the install as you could have a man put cords on before disposal installed. If dw and gd are hard wired you might save material . Nothing wrong in suggesting another way but if your not lowering the price then why should they allow it. Your also making there man look foolish and that might cost cost you the job. They want gfi on what ? Just the disposal ? If so that exsplains why they using it.
 

acrwc10

Master Code Professional
Location
CA
Occupation
Building inspector
Many times the architect specs are ( not so good :rolleyes: ) I think your suggestion to install it per code with a discount makes sense and is a standard practice, I would also suggest only discounting 50% of the actual savings this is motivation on both sides, you save work they save money. And did I point out "they save money"?
The only reason I could think of for the receptacle would be a future dishwasher, but that wouldn't work to well if it was switched with the disposal.
 

Dennis Alwon

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Chapel Hill, NC
Occupation
Retired Electrical Contractor
Could they be planning to install an instant hot dispenser under the sink? That would require the recep. Perhaps the engineer figure the load and it is okay on one circuit.
 

slick 50

Senior Member
Could they be planning to install an instant hot dispenser under the sink? That would require the recep. Perhaps the engineer figure the load and it is okay on one circuit.

maybe but the receptacle is energized with the switch also. I would ask to see the specs on the GD unit to see what they are wanting and why. If you ask me, I say what they probably are asking for is that the switch control the single receptacle and the GD has a cord on it:confused:
 

Dennis Alwon

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Chapel Hill, NC
Occupation
Retired Electrical Contractor
maybe but the receptacle is energized with the switch also. I would ask to see the specs on the GD unit to see what they are wanting and why. If you ask me, I say what they probably are asking for is that the switch control the single receptacle and the GD has a cord on it:confused:
That makes more sense.
 

CopperTone

Senior Member
Location
MetroWest, MA
If you ask me, I say what they probably are asking for is that the switch control the single receptacle and the GD has a cord on it:confused:

One would think that but I read the specs when I bid the job - the GD is to be hard wired. I'm not sure of the purpose of the single receptacle under the sink but the spec called for a GFI protected circuit and a single receptacle under the sink fed from the load side of the GD counter shut off switch, then an MC whip coming off the metal receptacle box under the sink to hard wire the GD.
unless the GD is batch fed type the switch will kill the power to the receptacle (well the switch will always kill the power but with batch fed you don't control the GD with the switch).
 

Jim W in Tampa

Senior Member
Location
Tampa Florida
One would think that but I read the specs when I bid the job - the GD is to be hard wired. I'm not sure of the purpose of the single receptacle under the sink but the spec called for a GFI protected circuit and a single receptacle under the sink fed from the load side of the GD counter shut off switch, then an MC whip coming off the metal receptacle box under the sink to hard wire the GD.
unless the GD is batch fed type the switch will kill the power to the receptacle (well the switch will always kill the power but with batch fed you don't control the GD with the switch).

It looks like they are using a gfi receptacle for protection that is not required and having you come off the load side. Should point out that this gfi receptacle is not a SINGLE as it is 2 receptacles. You might propose a price to do it there way and another using a cord and standard duplex with one half hot no gfi. That sets them up for future dish washer. A cord would save you time as long as you get to install before plumber gets it put in.
Sounds like a costly upgrade between disposal ,you,plumber not to mention 2 permits.
Do not forget to include time waiting to get into each unit as some tenants can be a problem.
 
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electricmanscott

Senior Member
Location
Boston, MA
20 amp circuit is a waste of $
GFCI Protection is a waste of $
Single receptacles is a waste of $


But.....


If that's how you bid it and thats the job awarded then who cares.
 
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