Bummed and *ticked* about GFCI question

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charlie b

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Lockport, IL
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Retired Electrical Engineer
Charlie is this a typo?
?then I can only conclude that the intent is that the hotel/motel building is NOT intended to be a dwelling unit.?
Good catch. But it's not a "typo." It's a "thinko." I thought it through less thoroughly than it deserved. Let me think it over again.

OK, I know ?C? is right, and that "A" is wrong. I know ?B & C? is not an option. Therefore, ?B? must be wrong. To get ?B? to be wrong, they must have intended the hotel to be a dwelling unit. That is what I should have said.

Now for the "Extra Credit" question: What is special about the combination of three words I underlined above? (OK, so it's OT. I'm just trying to deflect your sorrows by giving you a chance for an extra point or two. :wink: )
 

Twoskinsoneman

Senior Member
Location
West Virginia, USA NEC: 2020
Occupation
Facility Senior Electrician
Good catch. But it's not a "typo." It's a "thinko." I thought it through less thoroughly than it deserved. Let me think it over again.

OK, I know ?C? is right, and that "A" is wrong. I know ?B & C? is not an option. Therefore, ?B? must be wrong. To get ?B? to be wrong, they must have intended the hotel to be a dwelling unit. That is what I should have said.

Now for the "Extra Credit" question: What is special about the combination of three words I underlined above? (OK, so it's OT. I'm just trying to deflect your sorrows by giving you a chance for an extra point or two. :wink: )

The word though? I won't get credit even THOUGH the instructors were morons!

I'm kidding they seemed like nice guys just unfortunate they don't know charlie's rule....
 

mivey

Senior Member
Good catch. But it's not a "typo." It's a "thinko." I thought it through less thoroughly than it deserved. Let me think it over again.

OK, I know “C” is right, and that "A" is wrong. I know “B & C” is not an option. Therefore, “B” must be wrong. To get “B” to be wrong, they must have intended the hotel to be a dwelling unit. That is what I should have said.

Now for the "Extra Credit" question: What is special about the combination of three words I underlined above? (OK, so it's OT. I'm just trying to deflect your sorrows by giving you a chance for an extra point or two. :wink: )
Well, seeing as how 2skins needed consoling, I thought Charlie was throwing him three HUGs, but I'm not one to talk.:D
 

Jim W in Tampa

Senior Member
Location
Tampa Florida
Question needs tossed out as was no correct answer. Sorry about job just hope you got final paycheck. Times are bad and many will go under. I thought i was doing great 4 1/2 years same company ,never late or sick, wasnt begging for raise or anything and all my projects came out fine, no red tags except for 1 job over some things that were not my fault. Work simply has slowed down . Florida is at 10% unemployed, friend that is inspector for state got laid off. You can by a house in FL for 60 cents on dollar
 

mivey

Senior Member
Sometimes it just pays to know your instructor. I've had instructors who would put poorly worded questions on tests. But from sitting in their lectures, and knowing what they have stressed, you kind of get familiar with what they like to talk about and emphasize so you answer accordingly.

Then you have some instructors who just take pleasure in making others miserable. I had a professor who gave us a question on an exam that he knew no one would be able to answer because none of us had the rare math book that he had with the only solution he had ever seen in his 40-year career.:roll:

So here we are, sweating bullets on the exam, trying to figure out a problem that we think we should be able to solve, and he knows full well no one will get it right. I like to learn new things as much as the next guy, but teach me in the class room, don't get cute with my exam.

If it is any consolation, standardized tests are supposed to be better. They put in trial questions on exams that don't even count toward your score just to see how many people answer them correctly. Of course you don't know which ones these are, but you sometimes get suspicious of some standardized questions that have poor wording. This method is supposed to weed out the worst of the worst.

I really would not sweat it if I were you as you seem to know the material.
 

Twoskinsoneman

Senior Member
Location
West Virginia, USA NEC: 2020
Occupation
Facility Senior Electrician
I would have simply gone with all the above and moved on. It's the most logical chice.

Do you personally see a requirement in the code that a receptacle installed within 6ft of a residential kitchen sink requires GFCI protection or is it logical to you because you would have worked out that the writer of the question thinks its a requirement and grade the question accordingly?
 

charlie b

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Lockport, IL
Occupation
Retired Electrical Engineer
If you wish to pass a test, then having the right answer is less important than having the answer that the test's author thinks is right. :rolleyes:
 

charlie b

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Lockport, IL
Occupation
Retired Electrical Engineer
Now for the "Extra Credit" question: What is special about the combination of three words I underlined above?
Time's up. The three words (thought, through, and thoroughly) share the letter sequence "...ough..." But that sequence is pronounced differently in the three cases. If you bring "plough" and "dough" to the party, you'll have five words that pronounce the same sequence differently. Just another illustration of how "wonderful" the English language can be. :rolleyes::D

We now return you to your regularly scheduled thread. :cool:
 

cowboyjwc

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Simi Valley, CA
Do you personally see a requirement in the code that a receptacle installed within 6ft of a residential kitchen sink requires GFCI protection or is it logical to you because you would have worked out that the writer of the question thinks its a requirement and grade the question accordingly?

It's just an old question is the problem, because that used to be the requirement, of course it said to serve counter top surfaces and a FPN that exempted outlets for appliances.
 

guschash

Senior Member
Location
Ohio
I agree with everyone that the question could of been a trick question but like someone said you are reading into the question.
 

mivey

Senior Member
Time's up. The three words (thought, through, and thoroughly) share the letter sequence "...ough..." But that sequence is pronounced differently in the three cases. If you bring "plough" and "dough" to the party, you'll have five words that pronounce the same sequence differently. Just another illustration of how "wonderful" the English language can be. :rolleyes::D

We now return you to your regularly scheduled thread. :cool:
Come down for a visit, and we will "hope" you learn a whole new English language.

It's "thot" "thew" "thurly".
Example: "I thot chew was thurly thew widdat" (I thought you were thoroughly through with that)

Plough and dough would be the same here. We use plows.:D
 

Twoskinsoneman

Senior Member
Location
West Virginia, USA NEC: 2020
Occupation
Facility Senior Electrician
I agree with everyone that the question could of been a trick question but like someone said you are reading into the question.

I think I understand what you might be saying by reading into it but not really :D

Are you saying you DO believe all 15/20a 125v receptacles installed within 6ft of a residential sink must be GFCI protected?
 

drbond24

Senior Member
Come down for a visit, and we will "hope" you learn a whole new English language.

It's "thot" "thew" "thurly".
Example: "I thot chew was thurly thew widdat" (I thought you were thoroughly through with that)

Plough and dough would be the same here. We use plows.:D

Ya'll need to learn to talk more gooder like Jeff:

book.jpg
 

guschash

Senior Member
Location
Ohio
Twoskinsoneman, this is a good thread, you got everyone re-reading 210.8 and that is good. When a thread makes us think we all learn a little more. What I think I mean that you are reading into the question is you are picking the word "sink" and missing what they are really asking. Which is "Do you need a GFIC in these place. Now 210.8 (A) Dwelling Units, the first one Bathrooms ( no menton of a sink ) but would you put a GFIC in the bathroom, yes you would. If you look at Atricle 100 bathroom, toilet, a tub, or a shower, no menton of a sink. Now look in Article 100 Kitchen, an area with a sink. Now it doesn't mention to serve the countertops but it does say kitchen. Kitchen,sink,GFIC. If this is confusing I'm sorry. I am just trying to understand like everyone else. Thanks for the thread. Gus
 

Twoskinsoneman

Senior Member
Location
West Virginia, USA NEC: 2020
Occupation
Facility Senior Electrician
Twoskinsoneman, this is a good thread, you got everyone re-reading 210.8 and that is good. When a thread makes us think we all learn a little more. What I think I mean that you are reading into the question is you are picking the word "sink" and missing what they are really asking. Which is "Do you need a GFIC in these place. Now 210.8 (A) Dwelling Units, the first one Bathrooms ( no menton of a sink ) but would you put a GFIC in the bathroom, yes you would. If you look at Atricle 100 bathroom, toilet, a tub, or a shower, no menton of a sink. Now look in Article 100 Kitchen, an area with a sink. Now it doesn't mention to serve the countertops but it does say kitchen. Kitchen,sink,GFIC. If this is confusing I'm sorry. I am just trying to understand like everyone else. Thanks for the thread. Gus

Your certainly welcome for the thread. I feel it is a real priveledge to tap into the minds of all the experts that willing share their knowledge on these threads.

I wanted to add that from what I'd read from the experts posting here that in the 1996 NEC a change was made that (for some reason) made GFCIs unnecassary for kitchen receptacles that didn't serve the counters.
This is an ROP I found that shows a little insight. The most pertinent part in highlighted at the end.

2-60 Log #1893 NEC-P02​
Final Action: Reject
(210.8(A)(6))

____________________________________________________________​
Submitter:​
Norman Ellis, Stellar Inspections, Inc.

Recommendation:​
Revise as follows:
(6) Kitchens - Where the receptacles are installed to serve the counter top
surfaces or installed within 1.8 m (6 ft) of the outside edge of the sink.
Exception No. 1 to (6): Receptacles that are not readily accessible.
Exception No. 2 to (6): A single or a duplex receptacle for two appliances
located...".

Substantiation:​
Homes with kitchens where a knee wall or adjacent wall
often have duplex receptacles where crockpots, decorations, phone charger,
etc., rendering a safety hazard. Please provide provision for safety as this is
often overlooked or argued over during construction inspection.

Panel Meeting Action: Reject
Panel Statement:​
If the receptacle is being used to supply the countertop, it
must be provided with GFCI protection regardless of its location. The submitter
has not presented any evidence that receptacles that do not serve the countertop
are creating a specific hazard. In addition, the submitter has not provided any
substantiation to add the exceptions to the kitchen requirements.

Number Eligible to Vote: 12
Ballot Results:​
Affirmative: 11 Negative: 1

Explanation of Negative:​
KING, D.: This proposal should have been accepted in part. I agree with the
panel that the submitter has not provided any substantiation to add exceptions
to the required GFCI protection for receptacles serving countertops in
residential kitchens, but disagree with the panel?s position on GFCI protection
of receptacles within 6 feet of a kitchen sink. See my explanation of negative
for proposal 2-42.​
Comment on Affirmative:​
BROWN, L.: The 1990 NFPA 70 (NEC) (210-8(a)(5) (dwelling units) only
required: "receptacles installed within 6 feet of a kitchen sink" to have GFCI
protection.
This changed in the 1993 NEC (210-8(a)(5) (dwelling units) as the provision
was changed to:
"receptacles to serve counter top surfaces, installed with 6 feet of a wet bar
sink or kitchen sink."
In the 1996 NEC (210-8(a)(6) (dwelling units - kitchens) it was changed to
apply only: "Where the receptacles are installed to serve the countertop
surfaces." Any reference to the kitchen sink was removed from this provision.
Though, provision (210-8(a)(7) (dwelling units - wet bar sinks) for GFCI
protect for: "receptacles where installed to serve counter top surfaces and are
located within 6 feet of the outside of the wet bar sink" was separated out into
a new provision.
No change was made in the 1999 (210-8(a)(7) or 2002 (210.8(A)(7) editions of
the NEC related to the GFCI locations for kitchens or wet bar sinks.
The 2005 NEC expanded Section (210-8(A)(7) to include "laundry, utility,
and wet bar sinks", and the
GFCI locations changed to: "where the receptacles are installed within 6 feet of
the outside of the sink." The relationship to serving a counter top was removed.
The provisions for kitchen GFCI?s (210-8(A)(6) did not change.​
So the question is raised - does a receptacle on a wall in a kitchen, not
serving the counter top surface, but within 6 feet of the sink, required to have
GFCI protection? It would appear the NEC would not require GFCI protection
for the wall outlet within 6 feet of a kitchen sink. Though, it would for any
other type of sink. In addition, please refer to the Panel Statement on Proposal
2-64.
 
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