Federal Pacific

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mshields

Senior Member
Location
Boston, MA
I have been asked to do the design work associated with adding a 600A Distribution Panelboard down stream of an existing 1200A, 480Y/277V Federal Pacific switchboard. There is an existing 600A spare in the board that is, to my knowledge, part of the original equipment. Knowing that Federal Pacific has a checkered past, though not knowing what specifically the problems were, how do you think I should proceed. Should I for example

* have the breaker tested and then not worry about it, buy a
* refurbished breaker already tested (do they exist)
* Call for a new breaker designed to retrofit into this board (do these exist)

Any input you might have would be appreciated,

Mike
 

zog

Senior Member
Location
Charlotte, NC
I have been asked to do the design work associated with adding a 600A Distribution Panelboard down stream of an existing 1200A, 480Y/277V Federal Pacific switchboard. There is an existing 600A spare in the board that is, to my knowledge, part of the original equipment. Knowing that Federal Pacific has a checkered past, though not knowing what specifically the problems were, how do you think I should proceed.


The only issues Federal Pacific ever had was with thier residential stab lock breakers, nothing wrong with thier industrial stuff, we see it all the time.


Should I for example

* have the breaker tested and then not worry about it, buy a
* refurbished breaker already tested (do they exist)
* Call for a new breaker designed to retrofit into this board (do these exist)

Any input you might have would be appreciated,

Mike

Have it tested for sure, chances are it has never been refirbished and might need some TLC if it has been sitting there for 40 years untouched. What is the catalog # or type? (Which will determine the answer to your other 2 questions)
 

ATSman

ATSman
Location
San Francisco Bay Area
Occupation
Electrical Engineer/ Electrical Testing & Controls
Federal Pacific

The only issues Federal Pacific ever had was with thier residential stab lock breakers, nothing wrong with thier industrial stuff, we see it all the time.




Have it tested for sure, chances are it has never been refirbished and might need some TLC if it has been sitting there for 40 years untouched. What is the catalog # or type? (Which will determine the answer to your other 2 questions)

Zog,
Usually you are a pretty good source of info on breakers, testing, NETA, etc. which is
why I was suprised by your comment. I hate to beat a dead horse but cannot stand by and let you give out erroneous info. There is plenty of documented info regarding the reputation of FPE with their industrial line of breakers as well as residential. All one has to do is search on MH forums as there have been many posts on the subject such as this one:

http://forums.mikeholt.com/showthread.php?t=124926&page=2

I can remember back in the ?70s seeing a letter from FPE (which I have filed away somwhere) sent to the phone company out here warning them not to open certain molded case breakers under load. This stemmed from instances where the breakers were blowing up. It only related to certain frame types and ampacities.

Plenty of info on Google as well.
 

zog

Senior Member
Location
Charlotte, NC
No idea where you are getting your info, that thread is about stab lok. I have never heard of any issues with thier FP/FPS series air breakers.
 

ATSman

ATSman
Location
San Francisco Bay Area
Occupation
Electrical Engineer/ Electrical Testing & Controls
No idea where you are getting your info, that thread is about stab lok. I have never heard of any issues with thier FP/FPS series air breakers.

I made no mention of AFB's in my reply, only molded case breakers. I suggest you do some research.
 

ramIII

Member
Location
virginia
Zog,
Usually you are a pretty good source of info on breakers, testing, NETA, etc. which is
why I was suprised by your comment. I hate to beat a dead horse but cannot stand by and let you give out erroneous info. There is plenty of documented info regarding the reputation of FPE with their industrial line of breakers as well as residential. All one has to do is search on MH forums as there have been many posts on the subject such as this one:

http://forums.mikeholt.com/showthread.php?t=124926&page=2

I can remember back in the ?70s seeing a letter from FPE (which I have filed away somwhere) sent to the phone company out here warning them not to open certain molded case breakers under load. This stemmed from instances where the breakers were blowing up. It only related to certain frame types and ampacities.

Plenty of info on Google as well.

In the early 80's we replaced a number of FPE breakers that were recalled by FPE. It was in an old hospital,school and an eight story office building. The breakers recalled were in 480 volt panels mostly 100 to 400 amp breakers. Federal Pacific contacted the local building official who recommended us. The instructions we had was once we turned the breakers off not to turn them back on because they could possibly explode. It was a lot of fun in the hospital because we were not allowed to turn the panels off and we could only usually do one breaker at a time. The time might be 3:00am to change one and then come back at 10:00am to do another. The odd thing was the breakers were very random, it might be one in one panel and two in another but Federal had specific lists of which breakers had to be changed. The replacement breakers were made by Westinghouse.
 

zog

Senior Member
Location
Charlotte, NC
Ok, from the OP we do not know if it is a 600A AFB or molded case type. We need to have him respond.
Check out this pic of electricans hurt by the arc flash when operating a MCB in a main switchboard:


http://inspectapedia.com/fpe/FPE_Failure_Reports.htm scroll down to 4th pic

2-3 Arc Flash events occur in the US every day, breakers fail everyday. I don't see how that has anything to do with FPE breakers failing any more than any other breaker. The only issue I see here is the electricians failed to do voltage testing and failed to wear the proper PPE.
 

GoldDigger

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Placerville, CA, USA
Occupation
Retired PV System Designer
Ok, from the OP we do not know if it is a 600A AFB or molded case type. We need to have him respond.
Check out this pic of electricans hurt by the arc flash when operating a MCB in a main switchboard:


http://inspectapedia.com/fpe/FPE_Failure_Reports.htm scroll down to 4th pic

The text tells us that the breaker was likely not the direct cause of the arc flash. Instead the breaker did not actually open all poles of the circuit when operated manually (which can happen with any breaker or switch that goes long enough without maintenance, although FPE might have more of a problem in this regard.) The arc flash apparently occurred when the electrician(s) started to work on the still energized circuitry downstream.

Verify absence of voltage before proceeding! Even if you can see the blades open, for that matter.
 

zog

Senior Member
Location
Charlotte, NC
Ok, from the OP we do not know if it is a 600A AFB or molded case type. We need to have him respond.
Check out this pic of electricans hurt by the arc flash when operating a MCB in a main switchboard:


http://inspectapedia.com/fpe/FPE_Failure_Reports.htm scroll down to 4th pic

I also need to point out that inspectapedia is a for profit website founded by a plumber, the majority of the info on that site has been proven to be inaccurate and many of the photos are doctored, there are many discussions about that site on the NACHI website. http://www.nachi.org/forum/f19/federal-pacific-panels-74583/index4.html

Regardless, everything on that site is refering to stab lok issues, I have yet to see any issues with FPE industrial breakers. YOu want to talk about issues with air breakers? Look at all the safety bullitiens and recalls on Masterpacts, why isn't everyone calling those out as a hazard that requires immediate replacement?
 

ATSman

ATSman
Location
San Francisco Bay Area
Occupation
Electrical Engineer/ Electrical Testing & Controls
I also need to point out that inspectapedia is a for profit website founded by a plumber, the majority of the info on that site has been proven to be inaccurate and many of the photos are doctored, there are many discussions about that site on the NACHI website. http://www.nachi.org/forum/f19/federal-pacific-panels-74583/index4.html

Regardless, everything on that site is refering to stab lok issues, I have yet to see any issues with FPE industrial breakers. YOu want to talk about issues with air breakers? Look at all the safety bullitiens and recalls on Masterpacts, why isn't everyone calling those out as a hazard that requires immediate replacement?

Ok, I will admit that the info on the dangers of opening/ closing the very old 400-800A FPE molded case breakers is hard to uncover on the web. But how do you explain the FPE letter that was sent
to the phone co out here ( I mentioned earlier) warning not to operate these molded case frame types?
 

zog

Senior Member
Location
Charlotte, NC
Ok, I will admit that the info on the dangers of opening/ closing the very old 400-800A FPE molded case breakers is hard to uncover on the web. But how do you explain the FPE letter that was sent
to the phone co out here ( I mentioned earlier) warning not to operate these molded case frame types?

Federal Pacific is dead, which makes them an easy target. If inspectapedia was slamming SQ-D for all the actual recalls they have had and EC's were using scare tatics to get people to replace panels that say SQ-D they would be shut down quick and find themselves in court.

I have not seen the letter you are refering to so I can't comment on that.
 
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