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Thread: Another 2011 code change-Neutrals

  1. #1
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    Another 2011 code change-Neutrals

    "Section 200.8 Neutral Conductors
    Proposal 5-49 Log No. 3644
    (New) Neutral conductors shall not be permitted to be used for more than one multiwire branch circuit or for more than one set of un-grounded feeder conductors unless specifically permitted elsewhere in this Code.
    This new rule generally prohibits neutrals from being used for more than one multiwire branch circuit or one set of feeder conduc-tors. No rules actually and specifically prohibited the use of common neutral conductors in other cases."

    Remember, this has not become code yet, but may be close to being so.
    Instructor, Industry Advocate

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pierre C Belarge View Post
    "Section 200.8 Neutral Conductors
    Proposal 5-49 Log No. 3644
    (New) Neutral conductors shall not be permitted to be used for more than one multiwire branch circuit or for more than one set of un-grounded feeder conductors unless specifically permitted elsewhere in this Code.
    This new rule generally prohibits neutrals from being used for more than one multiwire branch circuit or one set of feeder conduc-tors. No rules actually and specifically prohibited the use of common neutral conductors in other cases."

    Remember, this has not become code yet, but may be close to being so.
    It sounds good?

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pierre C Belarge View Post
    No rules actually and specifically prohibited the use of common neutral conductors in other cases."
    Not needed IMO, Tbl. 310.16 and 240.4(D) already prohibit this and 215.4 permits this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by chris kennedy View Post
    Not needed IMO, Tbl. 310.16 and 240.4(D) already prohibit this and 215.4 permits this.

    I disagree that either 310.16 or 240.4(D) prohibit running for example a single 10 AWG as the grounded conductor for two 15 amp circuits on the same phase.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by iwire View Post
    I disagree that either 310.16 or 240.4(D) prohibit running for example a single 10 AWG as the grounded conductor for two 15 amp circuits on the same phase.
    Ah yes, this has been discussed before, good point. Thinking outside of the box.

  6. #6
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    That is one of my proposals as a part of my effort to get rid of code rules that try to use the term "shall be permitted" to prohibit other methods.
    3. Proposal (include proposed new wording, or identification of wording to be deleted):
    200.x Common Neutral Conductors. Common neutral conductors shall not be used unless specifically permitted elsewhere in this code.

    4. Statement of Problem and Substantiation for Proposal:
    It appears that CMP 2 is attempting to prohibit the use of common neutral conductors by specifically permitting them in 215.4(A) and 225.7(B). There is no reasonable reading of the words “shall be permitted” that can lead the code user to the conclusion that these words actually prohibit the use of common neutral conductors in other cases. The act of specifically permitting something in no way prohibits something else. Section 3.1.2 in the NEC Style Manual says that the words “shall be permitted” are to be used to permit an alternate installation method. The words “shall not” are required to be used to prohibit an installation method per 3.1.1 of the Style Manual. This change will make the wording in 215.4 and 225.7 comply with the style manual rules. Also the prohibition of the use of common neutrals should rest with CMP 5 as they have control of Article 200, Use and Identification of Grounded Conductors and not with CMPs 2 and 4.
    Don, Illinois
    "It is the first responsibility of every citizen to question authority." B Franklin

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pierre C Belarge View Post
    "Section 200.8 Neutral Conductors
    Proposal 5-49 Log No. 3644
    (New) Neutral conductors shall not be permitted to be used for more than one multiwire branch circuit or for more than one set of un-grounded feeder conductors unless specifically permitted elsewhere in this Code.
    This new rule generally prohibits neutrals from being used for more than one multiwire branch circuit or one set of feeder conduc-tors. No rules actually and specifically prohibited the use of common neutral conductors in other cases."

    Remember, this has not become code yet, but may be close to being so.

    So that would prohibit running 3 #14s and 1 #6 noodle?

    Not that I have done that, but whats the point of not allowing it? I belive in 2008, if you were to do that, those 3 circuits would need a handle tie, correct?

    ~Matt
    I would rather beg for forgiveness then beg for permission.

  8. #8
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    Matt
    I believe what it is saying is that more than 1-set, such as 6 ungrounded conductors sharing 1 grounded conductor, would not be permitted.
    Instructor, Industry Advocate

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pierre C Belarge View Post
    Matt
    I believe what it is saying is that more than 1-set, such as 6 ungrounded conductors sharing 1 grounded conductor, would not be permitted.
    I guess I've never even heard of anyone doing that. Never even considered it a possibility.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by iwire View Post
    I disagree that either 310.16 or 240.4(D) prohibit running for example a single 10 AWG as the grounded conductor for two 15 amp circuits on the same phase.
    What would be the use of that. I don't think I ever would use that type of install.

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