Existing J-boxes not supported

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dcspector

Senior Member
Location
Burke, Virginia
Jesus what a terrible attitude. I like the MA rules. They are just putting into law what should make sense already. I go in to add a receptacle and you tell me you're not going to pass it unless I bring the entire house to code?? That would probably be the last permit I pull. It isn't right but with unreasonable judgements like that you will force people to work around the permit...

Also a new rule does not automatically make a pre-existing condition a hazard because it is now a violation. There are obviously violations that would not be considered hazards.

Look at the OP! Did he mention a simple receptacle outlet change? No! They opened up a big problem and will be cited .....who cares who corrects it. read my previous post. But some one will correct it. Unfair or not. Building owner will pay...as I said read my other post.
 

Twoskinsoneman

Senior Member
Location
West Virginia, USA NEC: 2020
Occupation
Facility Senior Electrician
Isn't the potential of receiving a shock an 'actual hazard'? Why should someone living in a house built in 1989 be denied the safety our Codes and Enforcement provides someone living in a house that received a CO yesterday?

Actually I agree with this...
But it is not practicable or sensible to require every violation of a new rule to be corrected in every existing installation...I would love it....but it is idealistic...
 

dcspector

Senior Member
Location
Burke, Virginia
I read the entire thread....every post. Maybe I misunderstood your stance.... are you saying if it is just a simple electrical job than you would not "cite the existing issues"?? Only larger jobs?

Time out! The OP opened up a huge "Pandoras Box"....agreed?.....Yes. That is where we need to make decisions....agreed?.....I do not appreciate the things you said in your initial post to me. Nuff said.
 

480sparky

Senior Member
Location
Iowegia
Actually I agree with this...
But it is not practicable or sensible to require every violation of a new rule to be corrected in every existing installation...I would love it....but it is idealistic...


And I agree with you. It's just too impractible (let alone costly) to update every building every three years. But, the way I read Rule 4, it could be construed to require it.
 

Twoskinsoneman

Senior Member
Location
West Virginia, USA NEC: 2020
Occupation
Facility Senior Electrician
Time out! The OP opened up a huge "Pandoras Box"....agreed?.....Yes. That is where we need to make decisions....agreed?.....I do not appreciate the things you said in your initial post to me. Nuff said.

Well I'm sorry I offended you by saying your attitude was terrible...I may have come on a bit strong there. In fact I'm sure I did. Sorry.

I am curious if you make a distinction between smaller and larger jobs as far as correcting existing conditions that are now violations...
 

480sparky

Senior Member
Location
Iowegia
Well I'm sorry I offended you by saying your attitude was terrible...I may have come on a bit strong there. In fact I'm sure I did. Sorry.

I am curious if you make a distinction between smaller and larger jobs as far as correcting existing conditions that are now violations...


I don't think the size of the job has anything to do with it. If he came on a 'large' job site and the ceiling was still in place, there's no way to know of any hazards there, and therefore can't cite any violations. But since the ceiling had been opened up, it's in the interest of protecting the public that the problem(s) be addressed.
 

dcspector

Senior Member
Location
Burke, Virginia
I don't think the size of the job has anything to do with it. If he came on a 'large' job site and the ceiling was still in place, there's no way to know of any hazards there, and therefore can't cite any violations. But since the ceiling had been opened up, it's in the interest of protecting the public that the problem(s) be addressed.

Thanks ken....Perfect.:smile:
 

Sierrasparky

Senior Member
Location
USA
Occupation
Electrician ,contractor
in our neck of the woods these code violations you speak of would not be the issue of the EC but of the HO. Now if the code violations were wrong at the time of the installtion (meaning never allowed) then they will mostlikly need to be mitigated. If the installation was not permited and not to current code then that portion of work would need to be upgraded. In any case this is not fault of the EC unless they did the work.

my 2 cents
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
And that's only your opinion.

No, that is a fact, I live here, I have been working with these rules for 25 years and I go to 15 hours of MA continuing education every 3 years.

Inspectors are not requiring buildings to be brought up to current code when I am there to do other work.

Now when an inspector asks me 'Hey can you through a few box covers on' or "Can you tie up those few loose cables' of course I do it. :smile: But if a ceiling gets pulled down and it's exposes a ton of bad work that would take me many man hours and some stock then I would have to say no, not my problem.
 

K8MHZ

Senior Member
Location
Michigan. It's a beautiful peninsula, I've looked
Occupation
Electrician
No, that is a fact, I live here, I have been working with these rules for 25 years and I go to 15 hours of MA continuing education every 3 years.

Inspectors are not requiring buildings to be brought up to current code when I am there to do other work.

Now when an inspector asks me 'Hey can you through a few box covers on' or "Can you tie up those few loose cables' of course I do it. :smile: But if a ceiling gets pulled down and it's exposes a ton of bad work that would take me many man hours and some stock then I would have to say no, not my problem.

Same way in Michigan.

I have had inspectors ask me to do things that were above code. Not once was their request unreasonable or costly. Of course, I happily complied.

All the inspectors I have ever worked with were electricians in their former lives and have been pretty easy to get along with.
 

don_resqcapt19

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Illinois
Occupation
retired electrician
That is a rediculous and uneducated comment at best.
Greg,
I fully agree with Bob on this one. The EC has nothing to do with the previously installed system and its violations. That needs to be taken up with the owner, not the EC that is working on the existing project. You can, if your rules permit it, revoke the certificate of occupancy based on the existing violation, but you have no right, legally or morally, to bring the EC into it.
 
In our jurisdiction, this would be a simple procedure.
Write a violation to the property owner. He may not want to use an outside contractor, he may have an EC he uses for the smaller work on the property, let it be his choice.
But...a violation will be written, usually this violation has a time constraint with it as well.
 

Jim W in Tampa

Senior Member
Location
Tampa Florida
What happens is years of mr maintenance mans work gets caught. Now your caught. No do not pass anything untill violations fixed. Matters not who fixes. That red tag gets it fixed right now. Your fault if your contract does not spell it out. No you don't fix for free but this forces owner to get it fixed right now. Now if it was legal at time done then yes grandfathered. Glad to see inspecters that have eyes and care. Maybe this will stop whats been happening for years. I have seen just about everything, store build outs that never had a permit. Go after them mr inspector and many would be remove all ceiling towels, open all drywall where wires are covered. Ever think how much info a layed off or fired worker might have ? I had enough on one 5 years ago to pull his license and wish now i had done it. Major remodels and no permit.
 

woodduder

Senior Member
Location
West Central FL.
314.23(E) and (F).;) The language there dates back to at least 1937.

Thanks for the reply 480sparky.

I,ll post some pics Monday evening.

It appears that this is 30 years of non permitted adds in the building, although when we looked at the job prior to bid, all appeared like just another older building remodel. We never expected to see what we found.

On top of the other items I mentioned earlier, the ceiling is used for environmental air and there are several fixtures wired in ENT.
 
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