Arc $$$$$ Faults

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dcooper

Senior Member
Location
Ma
Ok so I have had it with these stupid breakers....... Where is the loop hole?? so I don't have to do : frig, micro, dish, dispos and hood? I lost a multi unit project to a guy whos says there is a way around it...... when I asked how.... he laughed at me
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
Ok so I have had it with these stupid breakers....... Where is the loop hole?? so I don't have to do : frig, micro, dish, dispos and hood? I lost a multi unit project to a guy whos says there is a way around it...... when I asked how.... he laughed at me
If NEC with no amendments is your standard you must follow - there is no legal way around it.
 

Sierrasparky

Senior Member
Location
USA
Occupation
Electrician ,contractor
Ok so I have had it with these stupid breakers....... Where is the loop hole?? so I don't have to do : frig, micro, dish, dispos and hood? I lost a multi unit project to a guy whos says there is a way around it...... when I asked how.... he laughed at me

Really , I'd like to know that one. The only way out is a payoff to the inspector or a lazyone who will not look.

I would become friends with the inspector if this other contractor really is not installing them. You can also get buddies with the supply house to see if they are selling them to this guy. If there is a panel breaker package with no AFCI then there is something wrong.
 
Location
NE (9.06 miles @5.9 Degrees from Winged Horses)
Occupation
EC - retired
Ok so I have had it with these stupid breakers....... Where is the loop hole?? so I don't have to do : frig, micro, dish, dispos and hood? I lost a multi unit project to a guy whos says there is a way around it...... when I asked how.... he laughed at me

Multi unit project would mean an inspection by someone. Ask them.

AFCI can be a PIA, but a minor one. If you are having a high rate of troubles change your methods and or product line.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
Maybe he's filling the panels with arc faults that he pulls out after final.
So it passes final. Now we just need to nail him for doing work without a permit or something along those lines when he comes back to pull the AFCI's:happyyes:
 
Location
NE (9.06 miles @5.9 Degrees from Winged Horses)
Occupation
EC - retired
True, but I think he meant cost of breakers made his bid higher than competitor that's not using as many.

You are probably correct. Most of us "over wire". We don't use code minimum and it would put us at a disadvantage to those that don't care if two AFCI handle everything but the kitchen and bathroom. Small units, maybe one is enough. Don't know.
 

Ponchik

Senior Member
Location
CA
Occupation
Electronologist
Multi unit project would mean an inspection by someone. Ask them.

AFCI can be a PIA, but a minor one. If you are having a high rate of troubles change your methods and or product line.


Assuming the inspector is doing his job.

One of local jurisdictions has hired inspectors that do not know what they need to check when it comes to electrical. That pisses me off because I know the hack installer gets away with bad installation and a passed inspection.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
Assuming the inspector is doing his job.

One of local jurisdictions has hired inspectors that do not know what they need to check when it comes to electrical. That pisses me off because I know the hack installer gets away with bad installation and a passed inspection.
Sounds like a situation you need to address with the local AHJ, or even take to State level AHJ if one exists. Usually locals still need to follow any state guidelines.
 

Ponchik

Senior Member
Location
CA
Occupation
Electronologist
Sounds like a situation you need to address with the local AHJ, or even take to State level AHJ if one exists. Usually locals still need to follow any state guidelines.

I have done that with local AHJ but I am not sure where it has gone. I don't get the same inspector every time.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
I have done that with local AHJ but I am not sure where it has gone. I don't get the same inspector every time.
You need to get together with a group of other electricians and as an organization get on their case for some uniformity. Getting other trades or even insurance industry to join in on the effort wouldn't hurt either. Any reputable contractors should be willing to do this, the hacks are the ones that don't care and the more they don't need to know or comply with the happier those individuals are.

You can maybe even question whether the inspectors used are qualified for their jobs, and maybe demand their qualifications be looked into, or see to it that better qualification standards are followed in the future. Many places an electrical inspector needs to meet some minimum certifications just by the laws of the AHJ he works for.

If inspectors are not inspecting properly they are doing a disservice to the people they serve, and I'm talking property owners, not installers.
What good is an inspection program if it doesn't follow it's own rules or is inconsistent with operations and policies from one project to the next?

There may or may not be willful intent going on, but everyone gets along better with consistency even if something is not quite correct.
 

retire09

Senior Member
Since AFCIs are required to protect the branch circuits supplying outlets; why do they now have AFCI receptacles?
 

GoldDigger

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Placerville, CA, USA
Occupation
Retired PV System Designer
Since AFCIs are required to protect the branch circuits supplying outlets; why do they now have AFCI receptacles?
Under the right circumstances (mainly wiring type from panel to receptacle) an AFCI receptacle can be considered to protect the entire circuit, including downstream outlets.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
Since AFCIs are required to protect the branch circuits supplying outlets; why do they now have AFCI receptacles?
That was the general rule early in the existence of AFCI's and still is kind of the general rule for new circuits. Put it this way - the rules get more complicated if you don't protect the entire circuit with a combination type AFCI at the origin of the branch circuit - but you do have some other options. Read 210.12 carefully and determine what applies to your situation.
 

ASG

Senior Member
Location
Work in NYC
Occupation
Electrical Engineer, PE
What Code are you following? In NYC we are under 2008 but I thought even in 2011 I didn't think you needed AFCIs in kitchens (where the micro, fridge, etc. would be).
 
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