424.19

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lmchenry

Senior Member
I feel this may have been hashed out before, but in 424.19 the word simultaneously was added in '08. Does this mean that if I have a 15kw unit that the 60 amp and the 30 amp circuit breakers on the unit have to be handle tied or something to that affect? Or does it just mean for each circuit that they have to be tied?
 

charlie b

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Lockport, IL
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I don't know what you mean by the 60 amp breaker and the 30 amp breaker. What do they do? If these are 240 volt, 2-pole breakers, then I would not expect there to be a listed handle tie for the pair. Do you suppose they intend you to provide a separate breaker upstream of the 60 and the 30, and put the 60 and the 30 in a separate enclosure?
 

lmchenry

Senior Member
Sorry, I should have given a little more info. The breakers are found on the unit and operate as disconnects. 60 for 10kw and 30 for 5 kw. Would you require a separate disconnect to simultaneously handle both circuits?
 
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infinity

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New Jersey
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Here's the section:

424.19 Disconnecting Means
Means shall be provided to simultaneously disconnect the heater, motor controller(s), and supplementary overcurrent protective device(s) of all fixed electric space-heating equipment from all ungrounded conductors. Where heating equipment is supplied by more than one source, the disconnecting means shall be grouped and marked. The disconnecting means specified in 424.19(A) and (B) shall have an ampere rating not less than 125 percent of the total load of the motors and the heaters. The provision for locking or adding a lock to the disconnecting means shall be installed on or at the switch or circuit breaker used as the disconnecting means and shall remain in place with or without the lock installed.

I would guess that if there is more than one supply you would need to comply with the bold sentence by marking and grouping those disconnects together.
 

Twoskinsoneman

Senior Member
Location
West Virginia, USA NEC: 2020
Occupation
Facility Senior Electrician
I don't know what you mean by the 60 amp breaker and the 30 amp breaker. What do they do? If these are 240 volt, 2-pole breakers, then I would not expect there to be a listed handle tie for the pair. Do you suppose they intend you to provide a separate breaker upstream of the 60 and the 30, and put the 60 and the 30 in a separate enclosure?

A lot of HVAC equipment (like heat pumps around my area) require two circuits such as the 60 and 30 in the OP example. These are both 240v circuits that land in the equipment usually on fuses. The circuits power the electric heat, blower, controls...

I think according to 424.19 as the OP pointed out BOTH the 60 and the 30 dp breakers would have to be tied together to open simultaneously...
 

charlie b

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I would guess that if there is more than one supply you would need to comply with the bold sentence by marking and grouping those disconnects together.
My only problem here is that if you have two breakers on the same panel, I do not see that as being two separate "sources," in the context of the words you showed in bold text. On the other hand, I can't see supplying the same heating equipment from two separate panels. So nothing makes sense to me. :confused:
 

charlie b

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I think according to 424.19 as the OP pointed out BOTH the 60 and the 30 dp breakers would have to be tied together to open simultaneously...
I have seen single pole breakers with handle ties. Do they make (and list) handle ties for two pole breakers?
 

lmchenry

Senior Member
I dont expect to find a handle tie for 2-pole breakers. However, you can put them in one disconnect. There are some that say the 2 circuits are 2 sources and therefore do not have to open simultaneously only be grouped and marked. I am still undecided.
 

Twoskinsoneman

Senior Member
Location
West Virginia, USA NEC: 2020
Occupation
Facility Senior Electrician
My only problem here is that if you have two breakers on the same panel, I do not see that as being two separate "sources," in the context of the words you showed in bold text. On the other hand, I can't see supplying the same heating equipment from two separate panels. So nothing makes sense to me. :confused:

I agree with this 100% charlie.

I have seen single pole breakers with handle ties. Do they make (and list) handle ties for two pole breakers?

I have never seen them......If 424.19 says what it appears to say it will cause a lot more work.

I dont expect to find a handle tie for 2-pole breakers. However, you can put them in one disconnect. There are some that say the 2 circuits are 2 sources and therefore do not have to open simultaneously only be grouped and marked. I am still undecided.

I think your going to be hard pressed to find someone to agree that separate sources of electricity just means from a seperate circuit. I can think a few places in the code that are being interrpreted very wrongly if that is the case.
 

480sparky

Senior Member
Location
Iowegia
I can't find the ROP to explain this change. Does anyone else see it?


17-33 Log #2036 NEC-P17
Final Action: Accept
(424.19)
_______________________________________________________________
Submitter:


James T. Dollard, Jr., IBEW Local 98
Recommendation:


Revise text to read as follows:
424.19 Disconnecting Means
Means shall be provided to disconnect the heater, motor controller(s), and
supplementary overcurrent protective device(s) of all fixed electric spaceheating
equipment from all ungrounded conductors. Where heating equipment
is supplied by more than one source, the disconnecting means shall be grouped
and marked. The provision for locking or adding a lock to the disconnecting
means shall be installed on or at the switch or circuit breaker used as the
disconnecting means and shall remain in place with or without the lock
installed.
Substantiation:


The problem with the present wording of this section is that
the disconnect in many Fixed Electric Space-Heating Equipment applications is
a circuit breaker in a panelboard or a switch that is not made with permanent
provisions for locking the circuit breaker or switch in the open position.
This requirement for a disconnect is for the safety of the installer/maintainer
of the equipment. Permanent provisions for making circuit breakers and
switches capable of being locked in the open position are readily available
from circuit breaker and switch manufacturers.
This proposal does not represent a large increase in the cost of an installation
but will result in a dramatic increase in safety.
Where Fixed Electric Space-Heating Equipment is involved we know that
maintenance will take place, we must ensure that only a lock is needed by an
installer/maintainer to work safely.
The practical safeguarding of persons from electrical hazards as detailed in
the scope of the NEC must not be permitted to hinge on whether or not an
installer just happens to have enough different types of devices and hopefully
one that that happens to fit the circuit breaker or switch in an installation.
Note that this language was accepted by CMP-11 and is a present requirement,
in the 2002 NEC, when a circuit breaker or switch is used as a disconnecting
means not within sight of a motor. Also included in the 2005 NEC is the same
language in 422.31 for appliances
The same level of safety is needed for these disconnecting means for Fixed
Electric Space-Heating Equipment.
Panel Meeting Action: Accept
Number Eligible to Vote: 13

Ballot Results:
Affirmative: 13


 

480sparky

Senior Member
Location
Iowegia
I saw that one. It doesn't saying anything about adding the word simultaneous

Sorry I meant the word simultaneously

Submitter:​
Daniel Leaf, Seneca, SC

Recommendation:​
Revise as follows:
Means A switch or circuit breaker that simultaneously disconnects all
ungrounded conductors of the circuit shall be provided to disconnect the
heater(s), motor(s), controller(s), and supplementary overcurrent device(s)
from all ungrounded conductors . In (A)(1) and (2) delete the second word
?above.?

Substantiation:​
Edit. No specific type of disconnect is indicated. Lugs,
terminals, wire connectors, etc. are means of disconnecting. The word ?above?
can be perceived as referring to the immediate preceding paragraph or all
preceding paragraphs.

Panel Meeting Action: Reject
Panel Statement:​
The disconnecting means can be other than a switch or
circuit breaker. Specific means via reference to other articles and their
respective permitted disconnect types are indicated in the remainder of 424.19.
Article 424, in general, and 424.19(A)(2) specifically, indicate disconnects for
motor controllers from Article 430. These are not limited to switches and
circuit breakers.

Number Eligible to Vote: 13
Ballot Results:​
Affirmative: 13

_______________________________________________________________
 

augie47

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Tennessee
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State Electrical Inspector (Retired)
Strange. From those posts, it looks like they rejected the term "simultaneously" yet it made it to the Code.
I'm sure we could play a word game, but if the disconnects are grouped and all circuits can be disconnected at the same time prior to working on the unit, I would be prone to accept that as "simultaneous"
 

Twoskinsoneman

Senior Member
Location
West Virginia, USA NEC: 2020
Occupation
Facility Senior Electrician
Submitter:​
Daniel Leaf, Seneca, SC


Recommendation:
Revise as follows:
Means A switch or circuit breaker that simultaneously disconnects all
ungrounded conductors of the circuit shall be provided to disconnect the
heater(s), motor(s), controller(s), and supplementary overcurrent device(s)
from all ungrounded conductors . In (A)(1) and (2) delete the second word
?above.?
Substantiation:


Edit. No specific type of disconnect is indicated. Lugs,
terminals, wire connectors, etc. are means of disconnecting. The word ?above?
can be perceived as referring to the immediate preceding paragraph or all
preceding paragraphs.
Panel Meeting Action: Reject
Panel Statement:


The disconnecting means can be other than a switch or
circuit breaker. Specific means via reference to other articles and their
respective permitted disconnect types are indicated in the remainder of 424.19.
Article 424, in general, and 424.19(A)(2) specifically, indicate disconnects for
motor controllers from Article 430. These are not limited to switches and
circuit breakers.
Number Eligible to Vote: 13
Ballot Results:


Affirmative: 13
_______________________________________________________________


Thats the one. Can you post the header infor showing log # and all that?

Thanks.

 

Twoskinsoneman

Senior Member
Location
West Virginia, USA NEC: 2020
Occupation
Facility Senior Electrician
Because the proposal was rejected....​

17-32 Log #958 NEC-P17 Final Action: Reject
(424.19)
_______________________________________________________________
Submitter: Daniel Leaf, Seneca, SC
Recommendation: Revise as follows:
Means A switch or circuit breaker that simultaneously disconnects all
ungrounded conductors of the circuit shall be provided to disconnect the
heater(s), motor(s), controller(s), and supplementary overcurrent device(s)
from all ungrounded conductors . In (A)(1) and (2) delete the second word
?above.?

Substantiation: Edit. No specific type of disconnect is indicated. Lugs,
terminals, wire connectors, etc. are means of disconnecting. The word ?above?
can be perceived as referring to the immediate preceding paragraph or all
preceding paragraphs.

Panel Meeting Action: Reject
Panel Statement: The disconnecting means can be other than a switch or
circuit breaker. Specific means via reference to other articles and their
respective permitted disconnect types are indicated in the remainder of 424.19.
Article 424, in general, and 424.19(A)(2) specifically, indicate disconnects for
motor controllers from Article 430. These are not limited to switches and
circuit breakers.
Number Eligible to Vote: 13
Ballot Results: Affirmative: 13​
_______________________________________________________________
 

Twoskinsoneman

Senior Member
Location
West Virginia, USA NEC: 2020
Occupation
Facility Senior Electrician
But the language is still present in the Code.

Maybe it was revisited by the CMP. Maybe a TCC somehow hot it through. Maybe Dan paid them off.

Maybe the NEC has a major typo in it.

I am not as versed about the process of changing the NEC as you guys are. Is it legal for changes to be made without a proposal? If it is where do they have to document the change? Or do they have to?
 

480sparky

Senior Member
Location
Iowegia
I am not as versed about the process of changing the NEC as you guys are. Is it legal for changes to be made without a proposal? If it is where do they have to document the change? Or do they have to?

Take a look at the schedule for the next code in the back of the one you have right now... way back in the end... past the index...
 
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