Inspector requiring kitchen counters (and cabinets) to be installed.

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retire09

Senior Member
I would not hesitate to inspect the outlet spacing without the counter tops but would require the kitchen sink to be installed and working.
In that area alone they could provide a temporary plywood counter.
The concern that something may change is not a problem.
Anyone can change anything after inspections are approved that could create minor code violations.
Since no permit is required to change a counter top; why would you hold up a final because it's not there yet?
 

jxofaltrds

Inspector Mike®
Location
Mike P. Columbus Ohio
Occupation
ESI, PI, RBO
I would not hesitate to inspect the outlet spacing without the counter tops but would require the kitchen sink to be installed and working.
In that area alone they could provide a temporary plywood counter.
The concern that something may change is not a problem.
Anyone can change anything after inspections are approved that could create minor code violations.
Since no permit is required to change a counter top; why would you hold up a final because it's not there yet?

Probably using the building code.

306.2 Kitchen.

Each dwelling unit shall be provided with a kitchen area and every kitchen area shall be provided with a sink.

306.4 Water supply to fixtures.

All plumbing fixtures shall be connected to an approved water supply. Kitchen sinks, lavatories, bathtubs, showers, bidets, laundry tubs and washing machine outlets shall be provided with hot and cold water.
 

retire09

Senior Member
The plumbing fixture (kitchen sink) is required by code; the counter top is not.
If someone only wants new counter tops, do they need to get an electrical permit to verify the outlet spacing still works?
We all should have far more important things to worry about.
Just my opinion. I know many disagree.
 

GoldDigger

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Placerville, CA, USA
Occupation
Retired PV System Designer
The plumbing fixture (kitchen sink) is required by code; the counter top is not.
If someone only wants new counter tops, do they need to get an electrical permit to verify the outlet spacing still works?
We all should have far more important things to worry about.
Just my opinion. I know many disagree.
Valid. IF the inspector is doing a combined inspection rather than just an electrical inspection.
 

K8MHZ

Senior Member
Location
Michigan. It's a beautiful peninsula, I've looked
Occupation
Electrician
I have seen, on more than one occasion, counter tops with back splashes installed in such a way that the outlet covers could not be removed. I have also seen covers 'modified' to fit in similar installations.....so, I side with the inspector on this one.
 

iceworm

Curmudgeon still using printed IEEE Color Books
Location
North of the 65 parallel
Occupation
EE (Field - as little design as possible)
I have seen, on more than one occasion, counter tops with back splashes installed in such a way that the outlet covers could not be removed. I have also seen covers 'modified' to fit in similar installations.....so, I side with the inspector on this one.

According to my brother - You can't fix stupid. The inspector has no way of knowing what will be changed the day after they walk out the door. The best they can say is, "It was okay the day I was there."

So, again, being as the inspector is brain stuck, what's wrong with 1/2" plywood countertops? And to solve the backsplash issue, add 1x6 common pine to the wall..

And I still don't know how we know the owners are not living there now.

ice
 

MasterTheNEC

CEO and President of Electrical Code Academy, Inc.
Location
McKinney, Texas
Occupation
CEO
You are very wrong Action Dave as I was a chief inspector...and those are true statements.but you are entitled to your opinion
 

MasterTheNEC

CEO and President of Electrical Code Academy, Inc.
Location
McKinney, Texas
Occupation
CEO
Our opinions are neither wrong or right..AHJ made the call...comply or no inspection. Sounds fairly simple to me. Put the plywood in, make him happy and move on.
 

PetrosA

Senior Member
If it were just the countertops, I could see arguing, but it sounds like neither the countertops or any cabinets are installed. I understand the inspector in this case. Receptacles, appliance lines, etc. are all dependent on where the cabinets are located and with nothing there at all, anything could change. How can an inspector possibly claim that the kitchen wiring is compliant at this stage?
 

augie47

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Tennessee
Occupation
State Electrical Inspector (Retired)
If it were just the countertops, I could see arguing, but it sounds like neither the countertops or any cabinets are installed. I understand the inspector in this case. Receptacles, appliance lines, etc. are all dependent on where the cabinets are located and with nothing there at all, anything could change. How can an inspector possibly claim that the kitchen wiring is compliant at this stage?

Those are my thoughts on the subject. More than once I have seen significant changes to the kitchen layout between the R.I and Final Inspections. "Final Inspection" means "Final". The Code says a "kitchen" will have a sink and food prep area. This almost always requires some countertops. You may add, relocate, ect after the fact, but for a final I need something resembling a kitchen.
 

GoldDigger

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Placerville, CA, USA
Occupation
Retired PV System Designer
So some sort of support is required for the plywood. But with the exception of an island or peninsula, I do not see how the cabinets necessarily play a role.
 

FREDKOOP

Member
Location
Denver, CO USA
Curiousity Q;
I'm not familiar with Mainland American nor the intricacies of living amongst the compressed hordes.

It's a remodel. Couldn't they already be living there - no occupancy permit required? As in it already has one from 1955.

ice

True. The head electrical inspector threatened to not allow a occupancy permit, not realizing that they did not need one because it was a remodel.
 

FREDKOOP

Member
Location
Denver, CO USA
I would not hesitate to inspect the outlet spacing without the counter tops but would require the kitchen sink to be installed and working.
In that area alone they could provide a temporary plywood counter.
The concern that something may change is not a problem.
Anyone can change anything after inspections are approved that could create minor code violations.
Since no permit is required to change a counter top; why would you hold up a final because it's not there yet?

Per IRC the kitchen sink is installed and working. Also installed is the dishwasher with a couple feet of counter and the refrigerator and old range.
 

FREDKOOP

Member
Location
Denver, CO USA
Our opinions are neither wrong or right..AHJ made the call...comply or no inspection. Sounds fairly simple to me. Put the plywood in, make him happy and move on.

This inspectors opinions are wrong sometimes as we have had his wrong opinions overturned by other inspectors/head inspectors in the past. If he is wrong, an opinion not backed up by code (not speaking necessarily of this case), it is crazy to just roll over and comply.
 
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Sierrasparky

Senior Member
Location
USA
Occupation
Electrician ,contractor
Per IRC the kitchen sink is installed and working. Also installed is the dishwasher with a couple feet of counter and the refrigerator and old range.


Well if you can't get it signed off by the AHJ then in my opinon it is now the Owners problem. They need to release you and pay you. if it is your permit they need to get the AHJ to allow the owner to take over the permit. You CANNOT be responsible for the owner holding up progress of the job. I can't belive that the AHJ does not have a process for this. This is not the first job that ran short of funds.

If there is anything left undone you need to provide them a bit of credit and tell them you are more than willing to install the rest once they complete the project.

Delays are now the owners issue.
 

MasterTheNEC

CEO and President of Electrical Code Academy, Inc.
Location
McKinney, Texas
Occupation
CEO
@FREDKOOP...well I guess you have to do what you gotta do my friend. Based on the statement that the head inspector agrees with his inspector I do wish you the best. I still say put in the plywood...unless this sword is worth diving on...have at it.
 

ActionDave

Chief Moderator
Staff member
Location
Durango, CO, 10 h 20 min from the winged horses.
Occupation
Licensed Electrician
You are very wrong Action Dave as I was a chief inspector...and those are true statements.but you are entitled to your opinion
No I'm not. An inspector can sign off on anything he wants. A good inspector do a good job, a lousy inspector won't. In either case he has no control over what happens after he leaves.

Looking back to the OP there may good reason to reject the final, but if the cabinets are in and the spacing for the recpts are verifiable he could pass it in good conscience.
 

MasterTheNEC

CEO and President of Electrical Code Academy, Inc.
Location
McKinney, Texas
Occupation
CEO
@ActionDave

we (or at least) I am not talking about what happens after the inspector leaves. Never have been since my first statement. What I said was when an inspector does a rough in inspection sometimes things change from what was originally done to what ends up being present at the final....it happens because I have seen it first hand so is very true.

in terms of an inspector giving a final inspection and walking away from that job having given an approval is serious business for an inspector. If the inspector and the chief inspector will not do the inspection until counters are in then it is their call. The job is still not complete until they sign off on it.....the permit also remains open as well.

Just as an FYI i direct you to a lawsuit in Alabama where an inspector is being sued as we speak and it happens in other states as well. As with any job (good or bad skills) the potential is always there. But I will say this, you don't get to make that call and you don't get to judge if that inspector is good or bad....he just made a call you potentially disagree with.

to answer your statement..."an inspector can sign off on anything he wants" well I had one that did and I fired him....he signed off on something he didn't actually inspect, I did a quality check on him and his poor judgement put the jurisdiction at risk. He had a track record which I documented, then the inspector made the bone head move and I pulled his trigger. Sadly he was actually a good inspector, but actions demand reactions.

the pure notion that inspectors are immune from legal responsibility is foolish at best, granted there are 50 states out in this country and everyone is different but in the 11 states I am intimate with the laws are the same. You don't sign off unless it's perceived compliance and that is a very "broad" scope laid out by the building officials to guard against misfeasance and malfeasance actions.

again..pointless debate in my mind, install the plywood tops and move on.
 

MasterTheNEC

CEO and President of Electrical Code Academy, Inc.
Location
McKinney, Texas
Occupation
CEO
No I'm not. An inspector can sign off on anything he wants. A good inspector do a good job, a lousy inspector won't. In either case he has no control over what happens after he leaves.

Looking back to the OP there may good reason to reject the final, but if the cabinets are in and the spacing for the recpts are verifiable he could pass it in good conscience.

Also I know things are a bit lax out in Colorado with all that legal "POT" smokin and all..:)..but in most states Inspectors have rules they must follow as "technical assistants" to the building official. If this OP would like to take their case to the Building Official then I suggest they choose that option. Otherwise, put the counters in, get the inspection and move to the next job.

Maybe I was just a Cold Heartless Contractor before moving to the municipal world....but when I did a job I got paid or liens are filed. But that's a totally different topic for another time.
 
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