Peninsula Receptacle

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ike5547

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In the following graphic, assuming counter top A were removed and the peninsula were scooted over and directly abutting the wall, would a single receptacle installed in the wall serve for the purposes of 210.52(C)(3)?

1099601197_2.jpg
 

Dennis Alwon

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It does not matter whether the peninsula is moved or not. Art. 210.52(C)(3) last sentence states that a peninsula countertop is measured from the connecting edge.

Thus a 6' long peninsula is really 2 feet of counter with a 4' connecting peninsula. You need an extra outlet on the peninsula.
 

infinity

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No. The peninsula starts at the point where the dotted line is drawn. If you moved that dotted line to the back wall you would need a new dotted line to delineate where the peninsula started.
 

jusme123

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youre trying to combine 210.52 C1 and C3 as one requirement (wall countertop space and peninsular countertop space)
 

charlie b

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I am inclined to disagree with the three previous replies. Who says that the first two feet of a peninsula counts as a "normal countertop," so that the peninsula begins at that point? Why cannot the "connecting edge" of a penninsula be at the wall? In the original sketch, we see that countertop A extends further to the right than does the width of the peninsula. In this image, there is clearly a separate countertop space, and a separate penninsula space. But if you discard section A, and all you have from left to right is the width of the peninsula, then way can we not say that this thing is a peninsula and nothing else?
 
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Dennis Alwon

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I am inclined to disagree with the three previous replies. Who says that the first two feet of a peninsula counts as a "normal countertop," so that the peninsula begins at that point? Why cannot the "connecting edge" of a penninsula be at the wall?

What would be the purpose of the last sentence in 210.52(C)(3) if that were the case?
 

roger3829

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I would think that if it starts at a wall then that would need a receptacle as "counter wall space". since it continues outward as a peninsula, then that part would also require a receptacle.
 

charlie b

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What would be the purpose of the last sentence in 210.52(C)(3) if that were the case?
Situation 1: A peninsula connects to a countertop.
Situation 2: A peninsula connects to a wall.
Both situations involve the peninsula having a "connecting edge."
 

Dennis Alwon

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Situation 1: A peninsula connects to a countertop.
Situation 2: A peninsula connects to a wall.
Both situations involve the peninsula having a "connecting edge."

It does not define the difference. Sorry Charlie, I can't agree with you on this. Perhaps it may need clarification but tell me what the difference is in the two scenarios. Why would you need a recep. on the peninsula in one case and not in the other. Doesn't add up, IMO
 

jusme123

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I am inclined to disagree with the three previous replies. Who says that the first two feet of a peninsula counts as a "normal countertop," so that the peninsula begins at that point? Why cannot the "connecting edge" of a penninsula be at the wall? In the original sketch, we see that countertop A extends further to the right than does the width of the peninsula. In this image, there is clearly a separate countertop space, and a separate penninsula space. But if you discard section A, and all you have from left to right is the width of the peninsula, then way can we not say that this thing is a peninsula and nothing else?

If you consider it a peninsular countertop, what if the receptacle was located 4 feet out on the peninsular countertop, would the requirement for the wall countertop receptacle be satisfied? No, so you have to consider that portion of the counter a wall countertop space
 

charlie b

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You do have a receptacle on the peninsula in both situations. In Situation 1, in addition to the receptacle on the side of the peninsula you have a receptacle on the wall. Both receptacles are required, because you have both a "wall countertop space" and a "peninsular countertop space."

In Situation 2, the single receptacle installed on the wall is the one and only receptacle that is needed for a peninsula. That is because, in Situation 2, you don't have any "wall countertop space," as is addressed in 210.52(C)(1). All you have is a "peninsular countertop space," as is addressed in 210.52(C)(3). You don't need two receptacles, because you have only one type of countertop space.

As I see things, if you want to tell me that there is a "wall countertop space" needing attention, then I expect to be able to stand in middle of the kitchen, look in the direction of the wall, and have countertop space in front of me. That is present in area A of the OP's figure. However, in my "Situation 2," as I stand in the in middle of the kitchen, look in the direction of the wall, and I will have countertop space to my left, but none in front of me.

I think that is the intent of the OP's question.
 
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charlie b

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If you consider it a peninsular countertop, what if the receptacle was located 4 feet out on the peninsular countertop, would the requirement for the wall countertop receptacle be satisfied?
There would be no requirement for a wall countertop receptacle, because there would be no wall countertop space. You were typing at the same time I was typing, so please see my previous post.
 

infinity

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There would be no requirement for a wall countertop receptacle, because there would be no wall countertop space. You were typing at the same time I was typing, so please see my previous post.


IMO when the peninsula butts up against the wall that portion become a wall counter top.
 

charlie b

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IMO when the peninsula butts up against the wall that portion become a wall counter top.
I am willing to acknowledge that opinion, and I see that you share it with others. But what statement or figure in the NEC compels us to look at the situation in that way? Where does it say that the first 25 inches of a peninsula counts as wall counter space?
 

infinity

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I am willing to acknowledge that opinion, and I see that you share it with others. But what statement or figure in the NEC compels us to look at the situation in that way?


I think that we can agree that the wording in this section is not perfect since it's uses the term "connecting edge", but I don't see any wording that would support your opinion either. If in your example an 18" wide peninsula is connected to the wall the requirement of 210.52(C)(1) would still apply because that connected edge would be more than 12" wide and would indeed form a wall counter top space. I don't see how we can just call it a peninsula and avoid the wall receptacle requirement even though it's a peninsula connected to the wall.
 

Dennis Alwon

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So why is the peninsula that attaches to another counter not a peninsula all the way to the wall. Why is it different if it is not attached to a perpendicular counter? In the drawing posted why is the peninsula not at the connecting edge at the wall. Who says the first 24" is a counter? I see your thinking but I don't see how you can have it both ways.
 

charlie b

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If in your example an 18" wide peninsula is connected to the wall the requirement of 210.52(C)(1) would still apply because that connected edge would be more than 12" wide and would indeed form a wall counter top space.
It would indeed touch the wall. That does not make it a "wall counter space." But we have two ways to look at it:
1. It touches the wall, and that creates "wall counter space," in the context of 210.52(C)(1), and the first 25 inches away from the wall shall be treated accordingly.
2. It is constructed as a peninsula, so that its entire length is "peninsular counter space," in the context of 210.52(C)(3), no matter where it is installed.

Which is right? Perhaps neither. As you say, the wording is not clear.
 

charlie b

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So why is the peninsula that attaches to another counter not a peninsula all the way to the wall.
The difference has to do with what I said in post 11, about seeing counter space in front of me, as I look at the wall. That space is where I will put the toaster, and that is why I need a receptacle there.
 

infinity

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It would indeed touch the wall. That does not make it a "wall counter space." But we have two ways to look at it:
1. It touches the wall, and that creates "wall counter space," in the context of 210.52(C)(1), and the first 25 inches away from the wall shall be treated accordingly.
2. It is constructed as a peninsula, so that its entire length is "peninsular counter space," in the context of 210.52(C)(3), no matter where it is installed.

Which is right? Perhaps neither. As you say, the wording is not clear.

I agree that the wording is unclear. Your argument hinges upon the definition of "wall counter space" which isn't defined in the NEC. Having said that, in applying 210.52(C)(1) someone will have to decide what exactly wall counter space is. The majority opinion here seems to be the portion of the counter or peninsula that connects to the wall. But again that's just an opinion. :smile:
 

Dennis Alwon

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The difference has to do with what I said in post 11, about seeing counter space in front of me, as I look at the wall. That space is where I will put the toaster, and that is why I need a receptacle there.

You have me confused...:D. If I have a "peninsula that abuts a wall and no counter then according to you I can have a recep on the wall and that would suffice the requirement. Yes?

Suppose I want to install a recptacle at the end of the "peninsula", would I need one on the wall where it abuts?
 
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