Pool Cover Motor

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I had a service call about a pool cover motor that was protected by a GFCI receptacle on the load side that keeps tripping when the key switch is activated. The pool cover motor is 120 volt with a forward and reverse leeds and is in a residential in-ground aplication. I removed the wires at the motor and again when the key switch is activated, the GFCI trips out. I tested the key switch and the GFCI and found no problems. When I removed the GFCI from the circuit and tested the wires at the motor ( coming from the GFCI ) when the key switch was activated I had 120 volts between the phase conductor and the neutral conductor. When I tested the other phase conductor to the neutral conductor I was reading 47 - 52 volts. I removed the key switch and wire nutted just one phase conductor to the common wire and then tested the wires at the motor to see if the key switch was bleeding volt across the other phase conductor but again it still reads 47 - 52 volt on the phase conductor that is not being energized. I'm assumming that the integrity of the wires from the key switch to the motor has been comprimissed. Any feed back would be appriciated. Thank you.
 

Dennis Alwon

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Chapel Hill, NC
Occupation
Retired Electrical Contractor
I am lost in your terminology. First you say you have a 120v motor then you talk about voltages from one phase to neutral and then the voltage between the other phase and neutral. If you have 2 phases then you have 240 volts. I am confused.:confused:
 

Buck Parrish

Senior Member
Location
NC & IN
I think he is saying " phase" for forward and reverse wires.

You would have to by-pass the switch completely. To illiminate it as the problem.
 

cadpoint

Senior Member
Location
Durham, NC
It seems that theres no easy replacement of the wires from the Key switch to the motor, I'd test it by
laying out temperary three or four wire circuit on the ground and send it to the motor, wire it up again, find the error, and then fix accordingly.
 

radiopet

Senior Member
Location
Spotsylvania, VA
Well it is going to be hard for him to by-pass it the switch as part of the system and still be able to meet the requirements of 680.27. Have you tried a different GFCI? You say checked other phases...but you said you had a 120V pump? Check all your connections again to make sure something has not come loose in your application. Have you tried using a GFCI breaker instead and see if that changes anything? The reason I ask is what is the distance you are working with on that GFCI receptacle and that could play a factor possibly.

(B) Electrically Operated Pool Covers.

(1) Motors and Controllers. The electric motors, controllers,
and wiring shall be located not less than 1.5 m (5 ft)
from the inside wall of the pool unless separated from the
pool by a wall, cover, or other permanent barrier. Electric
motors installed below grade level shall be of the totally
enclosed type. The device that controls the operation of the
motor for an electrically operated pool cover shall be located
such that the operator has full view of the pool.
FPN No. 1: For cabinets installed in damp and wet locations,
see 312.2.
FPN No. 2: For switches or circuit breakers installed in
wet locations, see 404.4.
FPN No. 3: For protection against liquids, see 430.11.

(2) Protection. The electric motor and controller shall be
connected to a circuit protected by a ground-fault circuit
interrupter.
 
Yes, I ment to say FORWARD and REVERSE conductors. I did remove and by-passed the key switch and spliced the forward and the common wire together, but I'm still getting a small amount of voltage 47 - 52 volts on the reverse conductor when it should have 0 volts on it because I have not applied any voltage to that conductor yet.
 

hillbilly1

Senior Member
Location
North Georgia mountains
Occupation
Owner/electrical contractor
Those type motors are dual winding, one winding runs the motor clockwise, while the other winding runs it counterclockwise, these type motors are very common in greenhouses also, used to close and open ridge vents and shadecloths. You will get a voltage from the other wire since they have a common connection with the neutral.
 
* I was only by-passing the GFCI receptacle and the key switch for trouble shooting method only. I would never permanently by-pass the safety methods that are in place to protect life and equipment that are enforced by the NEC.
* I have tried to install another GFCI receptacle and I had the same results.
* I have checked all connection points and found all wires to be tight and at all junction boxes, I found no Neutral and Ground wires touching.
* I did not try a GFCI circuit breaker because I did not have one with me. I will try this when I return to the jobsite. Thanks.
 

hillbilly1

Senior Member
Location
North Georgia mountains
Occupation
Owner/electrical contractor
You have already eliminated the motor as the problem when you disconnected it and the ground fault still tripped. How did you test the switch? If it has moisture in it, enough fault current would be able to flow to trip the ground fault.
 
hillbilly1, if you say: " you will get voltage on the other wire because both FORWARD and REVERSE wires share the common connection with the neutral. " Does this mean that the 47 - 52 volts that I'm getting off the wire that does not have any electricty being applied to it at the time, should not be the reason that the GFCI receptacle keeps tripping??? and its ok to have this extra voltage on this wire??? Thanks
 
hillbilly1, I tested the switch by completely removing it. I put the switch on the ground with no wires attached to it and began to test the switch for continuity to the casing for grounding out and found no problems and then I tested the switch in the forward and reverse position and again found no problems the switch is working correctly. With the switch out of the circuit, I wire nutted the common wire and the forward wire and got the same results with 47 - 52 volts on the other wire at the pool cover motor junction box and when I put the GFCI receptacle back into the loop, it trips out imediatly.
 
Just to give you all a vision of what I am seeing on site: I have a sub-panel located 25 feet from the front corner edge of the in-ground pool where the pool circulating motors are located. The rear corner edge of the in-ground pool is where the pool cover motor is located. Underneath the sub-panel is the GFCI receptacle that controls the pool cover motor. The hot and neutral wire comes down from the sub-panel and goes into the line side of the GFCI receptacle. Then the hot wire leaving the load side of the GFCI receptalce goes over to the key switch which is the common wire of the switch. Then the forward and reverse wires leaves the key switch comes back up the GFCI receptacle box and passes through picking up the neutral wire on that load side of the GFCi receptacle and goes out to the junction box next to the pool cover motor.
 

eds

Senior Member
can you take the motor out of the equation, maybe install a temp light in place of the motor and see if the gfi trips. It looks like you took the key switch out and the circuit and the gfi tripped under the motor load
 

hillbilly1

Senior Member
Location
North Georgia mountains
Occupation
Owner/electrical contractor
hillbilly1, I tested the switch by completely removing it. I put the switch on the ground with no wires attached to it and began to test the switch for continuity to the casing for grounding out and found no problems and then I tested the switch in the forward and reverse position and again found no problems the switch is working correctly. With the switch out of the circuit, I wire nutted the common wire and the forward wire and got the same results with 47 - 52 volts on the other wire at the pool cover motor junction box and when I put the GFCI receptacle back into the loop, it trips out imediatly.

A regular VOM will not be sensitive enough to test the switch, a megger will be needed. You said in an earlier post that with the motor disconnected, it still tripped when the switch was activated. Where was the motor disconnected at? The switch? or at the motor itself? If at the motor, the cable between the switch and motor could be bad. Unless the voltage is going to ground somewhere, it will not affect the gfi. Does the motor run fine while testing it without the ground fault in the circuit?
 
hillbilly1, I used a Fluke True RMS Digital Meter to test all the devices. With a Megger, I knew it was used to test the integrity of the wires, but switches too?? The motor was disconnected at the weather proof junction next to the pool cover motor. I've disconnected both the switch and the motor and when the GFCI is in the circuit, it trips out immediaetly but when I remove the GFCI from the circuit, the motor works just fine -forward and reverse and with the switch connected too. I truely believe that it is the wires in the ground that is causing the problem but I was just wondering if I had missed a step.
 

hillbilly1

Senior Member
Location
North Georgia mountains
Occupation
Owner/electrical contractor
hillbilly1, I used a Fluke True RMS Digital Meter to test all the devices. With a Megger, I knew it was used to test the integrity of the wires, but switches too?? The motor was disconnected at the weather proof junction next to the pool cover motor. I've disconnected both the switch and the motor and when the GFCI is in the circuit, it trips out immediaetly but when I remove the GFCI from the circuit, the motor works just fine -forward and reverse and with the switch connected too. I truely believe that it is the wires in the ground that is causing the problem but I was just wondering if I had missed a step.

You are looking for the integrity of the insulation, which a switch is also insulated, but if its still tripping without the switch and motor, it is very likely a fault in the wiring underground.
 
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