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lmchenry

Senior Member
My only issue is that they will be hooked up to some low voltage wiring to monitor their sleep. That does concern me.
 

lmchenry

Senior Member
Thanks Steve! Any more opinions on the sleep rooms and redundant grounding? It is called a sleep clinic and they will likely have some equipment close to the bed for monitoring.
 

steve66

Senior Member
Location
Illinois
Occupation
Engineer
I think the redundant ground would be required. I would suggest asking your inspector since he will have the final say.

Anytime someone posts a question like:

"Does such & such area require redundant grounding?"

there seems to be a lot of diagreement. Its one of the things I think NFPA should make a little clearer.

Steve
 

charlie b

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Staff member
Location
Lockport, IL
Occupation
Retired Electrical Engineer
I have undergone this type of sleep study. They had me hooked up to an EKG, to a special instrument that measured blood oxygen levels, and to a microphone. There was no sensor that penetrated the skin. I would equate this those chairs they have at some local drug stores, where you can sit and put your arm in a cuff and get a blood pressure measurement. Neither circumstance meets the definition of "health care," in my opinion.
 

cowboyjwc

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Location
Simi Valley, CA
I would have to disagree with Charlie on this on, and that doesn't happen very often. Now while I wouldn't worry about the blood pressure cuff at Walmart, I would think that if you are being hooked up to all kinds of monitors at a sleep clinic, that would be more than you will be hooked up to in most dr's exam rooms and they are required to be wired per 517.

And no on the two sources of power unless they are doing surgery.
 

charlie b

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Location
Lockport, IL
Occupation
Retired Electrical Engineer
If it makes a difference, John, in a doctor's exam room it is possible for you to get stuck with a needle full of dying germs, or to get blood drawn, or to get a gash cleaned and sewn up. Also, "medical offices" are explicitly named in the article 517 definition of "health care facilities." Finally, in the doctor's office you will have a doctor or nurse actively providing medical services.

But during my sleep study, all I had was a set of sensing devices glued to my chest or held against my forehead by a strap. As I mentioned, there was nothing that penetrated the skin. This was a test, the purpose of which was to determine whether I was in need of health care. It was not health care, in and of itself.
 

cowboyjwc

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Location
Simi Valley, CA
We've (not you and me, but the "group") had this same discussion about eye exam areas and I said that they would be exempt so I can see where you're going.

If I use the definitions in 517 and look under Health care facilities, I see "clinics". Then I look under patient care area and then under general care areas and I see electomedical devices and if give a discription of what they are.

I still say per 517.:smile:
 

raider1

Senior Member
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Location
Logan, Utah
If I use the definitions in 517 and look under Health care facilities, I see "clinics".

So when I bring my son to the local basketball clinic at the rec center he will be in a health care facility?;):D

Chris
 

Jim Shorts

Member
Location
Central Florida
Where does everyone get that you must penetrate the skin to be a health care facility? 517.2 even considers a psychiatric office a health care facility. Do they do invasive procedures in a psychiatrists office? IMO if the people running the place have a medical degree, then it is a health care facility.
 

charlie b

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Location
Lockport, IL
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Retired Electrical Engineer
Where does everyone get that you must penetrate the skin to be a health care facility?
Good point. I think that for a site to be considered a health care facility, the persons working there must provide, well, health care. Taking measurements (e.g., height, weight, pulse rate, aspiration rate, and blood pressure), asking for a "specimen," and getting a list of a person's medications are not examples of providing "care." Neither is an electrocardiogram. They are, as I said before, examples of ways to find out what care, if any, the person needs. I used the "no blood, no foul" statement as a way of explaining that I did not consider the sleep study to have provided "care."

IMO if the people running the place have a medical degree, then it is a health care facility.
There were no degreed persons present during my sleep study. All were technicians, specializing in the operation of the monitoring equipment. I am fairly certain that if a person undergoing a sleep study were to experience a medical emergency, the staff at the "clinic" would have called 911, and made no attempt to deal with the emergency themselves.


 

charlie b

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Location
Lockport, IL
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Retired Electrical Engineer
Then I look under patient care area and then under general care areas and I see electomedical devices. . . .
I don't see that phrase under "general care area." Instead, I see it under "critical care area." But I also see the phrase "intended to be subjected to invasive procedures." The two phrases are connected with the word "and." So for an area to be a "critical care area," there has to be both the expectation of invasive procedures and the connection of the patient to electromedical devices. A sleep clinic meets neither of these two conditions.


 

Jim Shorts

Member
Location
Central Florida

I don't see that phrase under "general care area." Instead, I see it under "critical care area." But I also see the phrase "intended to be subjected to invasive procedures." The two phrases are connected with the word "and." So for an area to be a "critical care area," there has to be both the expectation of invasive procedures and the connection of the patient to electromedical devices. A sleep clinic meets neither of these two conditions.



What does that have to do with the redundant grounding requirement? 517.13 applies to a patient care area which is defined as any portion of a health care facility wherein patients are intended to be "examined or treated". The redundant grounding requirement applies to all of these areas not just the critical care areas. The only portions of a health care facility are exempt would be offices where patients are not examined, waiting rooms, hallways and the like. If a psychiatrist office is a health care facility by definition and the psychiatrist "examines" you in his office by talking to you, then by both definitions this area would require a wiring method appropriate to section 517.13. Has nothing to do with invasive procedures.
 

cowboyjwc

Moderator
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Location
Simi Valley, CA
I don't see that phrase under "general care area." Instead, I see it under "critical care area." But I also see the phrase "intended to be subjected to invasive procedures." The two phrases are connected with the word "and." So for an area to be a "critical care area," there has to be both the expectation of invasive procedures and the connection of the patient to electromedical devices. A sleep clinic meets neither of these two conditions.

I can actully give you that one, only because here in CA we are still in the 2005 and I do see that there is a change in the 2008.:grin:
 

cowboyjwc

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Simi Valley, CA
Good point. I think that for a site to be considered a health care facility, the persons working there must provide, well, health care. Taking measurements (e.g., height, weight, pulse rate, aspiration rate, and blood pressure), asking for a "specimen," and getting a list of a person's medications are not examples of providing "care." Neither is an electrocardiogram. They are, as I said before, examples of ways to find out what care, if any, the person needs. I used the "no blood, no foul" statement as a way of explaining that I did not consider the sleep study to have provided "care."
There were no degreed persons present during my sleep study. All were technicians, specializing in the operation of the monitoring equipment. I am fairly certain that if a person undergoing a sleep study were to experience a medical emergency, the staff at the "clinic" would have called 911, and made no attempt to deal with the emergency themselves.

I guess we could play the definition game a little. If you were at a college and they were doing a study to find out how many people have sleeping problems or looking for sleeping patterns then maybe it's not a care area. If you are at a clinic and they are checking to see if you have sleep aphniea (or however you spell it) then maybe it is a care area.

Tomato, tamoto.
 
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