A way to replace wiring

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Strahan

Senior Member
Location
Watsontown, PA
Here we go:
Situation: 2story farm house with attic knob and tube wiring used. Owner has wiring issue's on second floor and the wiring needs replaced.
Solution: I have been asked if this is ok and just need some reassurance from you guys. They want to add a MLO subpanel in the attic to be used to supply all 2nd floor lights and outlets. Now I know this will be handled as a feeder. All non-continuous loads so feeder sized to 100% of load. Should be a 4-wire feed from the service panel to the sub keeping grounded and equipment grounding conductor separate. They are not sure of subpanel size I suggested 60amp. Easiest route from main service to attic would be outside wall. Can they run SER cable along the outside wall to gain access to attic? I know they will need 4conductor ser cable 3insulated conductors and one bare for egc. Your thoughts?
 

macmikeman

Senior Member
Ser is sunlight resistant, and wet rated if that is what you are asking. It must not be subject to physical damage, and as of 2008 nec there are changes to the cable rating from the 75 deg column to the 60 deg column so keep that in mind. Other than that, it is ok to use as a feeder on the interior of buildings.
 

Strahan

Senior Member
Location
Watsontown, PA
Ser is sunlight resistant, and wet rated if that is what you are asking. It must not be subject to physical damage, and as of 2008 nec there are changes to the cable rating from the 75 deg column to the 60 deg column so keep that in mind. Other than that, it is ok to use as a feeder on the interior of buildings.

Thank you! Iam a little concerned about protection. I beleive they are going to have to sleeve the cable at the lower point of the building and Ill keep the 60deg change in mind can you give me a code reference?
 

Smart $

Esteemed Member
Location
Ohio
Thank you! Iam a little concerned about protection. I beleive they are going to have to sleeve the cable at the lower point of the building and Ill keep the 60deg change in mind can you give me a code reference?

334.80 via 338.10(B)(4)(a)
 
My first thought is; Is there enough head room above the location in the attic you want to put the sub panel at? I have seen panels in attics in Western NY years ago. The attics where big enough to be finished like any other floor.
 

Strahan

Senior Member
Location
Watsontown, PA
Are they doing the work or are you?

My first thought is; Is there enough head room above the location in the attic you want to put the sub panel at? I have seen panels in attics in Western NY years ago. The attics where big enough to be finished like any other floor.

The question of this installation has been discussed between myself and a co-worker who is a liscensed journeyman; he has just been out of the residential field for quite a few years mostly dealing with industrial. He is basically my "Control Tech." boss; so he will be doing the work just asking me for my thoughts as I try to stay more up to date on codes outside the industry.

The attic is basically a full size room; so clearances will not be an issue.
 

Chenley

Member
Location
Western KY
I don't see a problem with it if it is readily accessible and has the required working clearances. HO's aren't going to pile up all there christmas stuff in front of it right, lol.

I'm picturing one of those walk-in attics in my head. If it happen to be one that has the attic access that needs to be pulled down out of the ceiling and has stairs, I'm not quite sure that would be considered readily accessible.
 

Strahan

Senior Member
Location
Watsontown, PA
I don't see a problem with it if it is readily accessible and has the required working clearances. HO's aren't going to pile up all there christmas stuff in front of it right, lol.

I'm picturing one of those walk-in attics in my head. If it happen to be one that has the attic access that needs to be pulled down out of the ceiling and has stairs, I'm not quite sure that would be considered readily accessible.

LOL unfortunately I can't say if the HO will do this or not, but they will be told. No pull down stairs. Permanent stairs no different then from the first floor to the second floor. I'm finding alot of guys are concerned when I mention attic, but every house I've personally lived in and most I have worked in in my area have attics that can be compared to another floor. Walls might not be quite 8' but are very close and you can freely walk around without ducking.
 

iMuse97

Senior Member
Location
Chicagoland
LOL unfortunately I can't say if the HO will do this or not, but they will be told. No pull down stairs. Permanent stairs no different then from the first floor to the second floor. I'm finding alot of guys are concerned when I mention attic, but every house I've personally lived in and most I have worked in in my area have attics that can be compared to another floor. Walls might not be quite 8' but are very close and you can freely walk around without ducking.

I know the attic type; lived in a house like that for three years, and rented the room out, too. I like your solution to the rewire. Why not sleeve the thing the whole way (PVC) and just pull wire, regular wire? That might be easier than trying to get SER into a sleeve.
 

Strahan

Senior Member
Location
Watsontown, PA
I know the attic type; lived in a house like that for three years, and rented the room out, too. I like your solution to the rewire. Why not sleeve the thing the whole way (PVC) and just pull wire, regular wire? That might be easier than trying to get SER into a sleeve.

Actually this solution has recently come up. Not sure which way he will go yet, but this does bring to mind another question. If we do choose to sleeve the ser how do we keep water from entering the top of the sleeve because you would almost have to sleeve it into the wall as well; so the water entering the top of the sleeve would follow into the house. What do you guys do?
 

Strahan

Senior Member
Location
Watsontown, PA
Guys question pertaining to protecting the cable from physical damage:
I'm looking for a specific code section that tells me at what point I need to protect this cable from physical damage and how. I'm currently looking at 230.50(B)(2).
 

iMuse97

Senior Member
Location
Chicagoland
Guys question pertaining to protecting the cable from physical damage:
I'm looking for a specific code section that tells me at what point I need to protect this cable from physical damage and how. I'm currently looking at 230.50(B)(2).

Physical damage is always a possibility if wire is exposed, that is, on the exterior of a surface, where someone might place something against it, etc. I'm very conservative when it comes to protecting feeders, because you never know who is going to do what in the future, incl. putting a lagbolt through it to mount something to the outside of the house.

I think it was on a MH newletter I remember a woman who always got a tingle from opening and shutting her kitchen window. Turns out, the #6s that fed her Range were in the exterior wall. She had new shutters installed, and one of the screws hit the wire. Being a stucco house, the mesh became energized and energized all the aluminum window frames, too. She only felt it when she opened her kitchen window because then it was likely that her hands would be damp, but all the windows were energized. Try troubleshooting that one. :confused:

Who's to say what could happen? YOU are the one who needs to do that, and guard against it. Run that Schedule 80 or the IMC. It is what it is. The Code is the one you are looking at. 230.50(B)
 

Strahan

Senior Member
Location
Watsontown, PA
Physical damage is always a possibility if wire is exposed, that is, on the exterior of a surface, where someone might place something against it, etc. I'm very conservative when it comes to protecting feeders, because you never know who is going to do what in the future, incl. putting a lagbolt through it to mount something to the outside of the house.

I think it was on a MH newletter I remember a woman who always got a tingle from opening and shutting her kitchen window. Turns out, the #6s that fed her Range were in the exterior wall. She had new shutters installed, and one of the screws hit the wire. Being a stucco house, the mesh became energized and energized all the aluminum window frames, too. She only felt it when she opened her kitchen window because then it was likely that her hands would be damp, but all the windows were energized. Try troubleshooting that one. :confused:

Who's to say what could happen? YOU are the one who needs to do that, and guard against it. Run that Schedule 80 or the IMC. It is what it is. The Code is the one you are looking at. 230.50(B)

iMuse97 thank you everything you have contributed is great!
 

quogueelectric

Senior Member
Location
new york
iMuse97 thank you everything you have contributed is great!
I would find a chase either plumbing or make a few holes in gable wall and run it inside with romex.
I dont think ser would pass I think service entrance means just that SERVICE entrance not subpanel entrance romex I would have to check yet I have never seen this done
. 2008 I think it needs to be weatherproof even if run in pvc outside. It is easier to run inside with a 6ft ladder and patch a few holes in the sheetrock Than strap an eyesore to the outside of someones house on a 24 ft extention ladder.
I can get pretty far with versabits and a see snake .
I have been getting much better at small sheetrock patches and my customers love it when all they have to do is a light coat of spackle and paint the next time the room is due for paint.
 
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macmikeman

Senior Member
Look, the guy asks if SER is allowed to be used on the exterior (above ground) for a sub panel feed. The answer is yes, plain and simple if the NEC is the code in his area, and it is not subject to physical damage. If that is not a common method where somebody else is located, then chances are the local authorities may take an exception to it, but it is still ok by the NEC. I would rather see the SER cable run indoors, or do the whole job with conduit and thhn, but thats just personal preference. The code book says its ok. Size it right.
 

BigJohn20

Member
I would find a chase either plumbing or make a few holes in gable wall and run it inside with romex.
I dont think ser would pass I think service entrance means just that SERVICE entrance not subpanel entrance romex I would have to check yet I have never seen this done
. 2008 I think it needs to be weatherproof even if run in pvc outside. It is easier to run inside with a 6ft ladder and patch a few holes in the sheetrock Than strap an eyesore to the outside of someones house on a 24 ft extention ladder.
I can get pretty far with versabits and a see snake .
I have been getting much better at small sheetrock patches and my customers love it when all they have to do is a light coat of spackle and paint the next time the room is due for paint.

2005. Article 338. Specifically 338.10. Tells you that if you abide by certain conditions, Type SE cable can be used for Service Entrance or Branch Circuits or Feeders. I believe the only thing different between the 2005 and 2008 NEC is the requirement in the 2008 to use the 60dC column for ampacity.

People have been using SE/SER for ranges/dryers and subpanels around here for a very long time.
 
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mcclary's electrical

Senior Member
Location
VA
I would find a chase either plumbing or make a few holes in gable wall and run it inside with romex.
I dont think ser would pass I think service entrance means just that SERVICE entrance not subpanel entrance romex I would have to check yet I have never seen this done
. 2008 I think it needs to be weatherproof even if run in pvc outside. It is easier to run inside with a 6ft ladder and patch a few holes in the sheetrock Than strap an eyesore to the outside of someones house on a 24 ft extention ladder.
I can get pretty far with versabits and a see snake .
I have been getting much better at small sheetrock patches and my customers love it when all they have to do is a light coat of spackle and paint the next time the room is due for paint.

I agree, SER up the side of a building, just SCREAMS HACK!!,,,I've always hated that.
 
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