Failed inspections

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electricmanscott

Senior Member
Location
Boston, MA
The world does not revolve around the NEC by itself. it is part of a larger picture and only part of the puzzle.

If it does not apply in your area then ignore it, no reason to comment on something that does not apply.

To be fair, you are posting in an NEC forum.

So do you as an electrical inspector inspect more than electrical work? It seems that way.

Also what electrical codes do you inspect by? It seems foolish to have different electrical codes to go by. Although I guess it is typical of government to make things much more difficult then they need to be.

So what, officially, are you bound to inspect and what codes do you officially use to back your decisions?
 

electricmanscott

Senior Member
Location
Boston, MA
To add to the previous post directed at the OP...

I think we should also know what your electricians are officialy legally bound to as far as codes go.



In my area we use the Massachusetts Electrical Code. This is just the NEC with some amendments thrown in. That is our electrical code. That is what our electrical inspectors base their inspections on.

If I butcher a beam, the electrical inspector can not faill me
If I don't install smoke detectors, the electrical inspector can not fail me
If a cut a hole in a firewall the electrical inspector can not fail me
If I don't firestop a penetration where it is required the electrical inspector can not fail me.
 

nakulak

Senior Member
FM is two things - 1) its a NRTL and provides ntrtl approval (like UL), as well as design guidelines/approval for systems (like UL) 2) its an insurance underwriter for factory/manufacturing


we installed a bunch of gas detection and fire protection systems for utils and the gov, and they were fm approved with fm approved FA and deluge systems and devices.
 

ivsenroute

Senior Member
Location
Florida
To add to the previous post directed at the OP...

I think we should also know what your electricians are officialy legally bound to as far as codes go.



In my area we use the Massachusetts Electrical Code. This is just the NEC with some amendments thrown in. That is our electrical code. That is what our electrical inspectors base their inspections on.

If I butcher a beam, the electrical inspector can not faill me
If I don't install smoke detectors, the electrical inspector can not fail me
If a cut a hole in a firewall the electrical inspector can not fail me
If I don't firestop a penetration where it is required the electrical inspector can not fail me.

Good for you. Glad you can cause havoc for everyone else an not fail your electrical inspection. I am sure you would be hired again by a GC after doing all of that right?

Apparently you don't do the above because you are aware of other requirements.

Yes I do perform other inspections because I am a multi-discipline inspector.


Keep slammin away rather than trying to expand your knowledge and understand that the NEC is not the only game in town and often is not the only standard that applies. The NEC references the NFPA 72 so you probably have that standard in your truck too right? NFPA 497-2004 & 499-2004 are also referred to along with direction for you ro refer to ANSI/NEMA 250-1991, ANSI/UL 1203-1994, ISA-RP12.12.03-2002, ANSI/ISA-12.12.01-2000, ANSI/ NFPA 496-2003, ANSI/API RP 14F-1999 and the list can go on.

The NEC gets a lot of its information from other established codes. In order to fully understand all of the requirements, you have to go to other standards. That is of course if you have any intention of expanding your knowlege base and making your industry a profession.

Expand your knowledge and understand that the NEC by itself will not tell you every single thing about every single installation.

I am not slamming anyone and I am certainly not holier than thou and have explained that. Change is coming to your town soon and I was hoping that I could get that point across since that seems to be the biggest grip here. The electricians in PA lived and died by the NEC alone until the I-codes were adopted then they had to step up to the plate and learn more or fail inspections.

The responses from some of the ECs has not surprised me and even a moderator has commented that this would cause problems. I see it all the time whenever we don't pass an inspection. We are all human but react differently when we fail.
 

ivsenroute

Senior Member
Location
Florida
To add to the previous post directed at the OP...

I think we should also know what your electricians are officialy legally bound to as far as codes go.



In my area we use the Massachusetts Electrical Code. This is just the NEC with some amendments thrown in. That is our electrical code. That is what our electrical inspectors base their inspections on.

If I butcher a beam, the electrical inspector can not faill me
If I don't install smoke detectors, the electrical inspector can not fail me
If a cut a hole in a firewall the electrical inspector can not fail me
If I don't firestop a penetration where it is required the electrical inspector can not fail me.

Your state MA has adopted the 2006 IECC with some ammendments and additions and it is incorporated into your electrical code requirements. Much of it is spelled out in 780 CMR Seventh Edition. I would assume that you are familiar with that.

Also, if you are installing an ADA compliant bathroom, work area or public place, where do you install the equipment at? What height & depth? Do you follow the DOJ's ADAAG or the local ANSI-117.1? The switch height requirement, receptacle location, hand dryer height are all regulated but not by the NEC. Do you ask the GC where he wants it, do you know where it belongs or do you just install it wherever you want?

What is the maximum watts per square foot are you allowed to install in a business office space? It is part of your own code.
 

dduffee260

Senior Member
Location
Texas
I approve and sign off of things that i dont like every day. They are code compliant and I may have not done them that way but I approve them because that is my job..

If it bothers you that bad. Then why don't you start up and EC business and change the industry?
 

ivsenroute

Senior Member
Location
Florida
If it bothers you that bad. Then why don't you start up and EC business and change the industry?

They don't bother me but I am showing that I am doing my job by approving code compliant installations and leaving my opinion out of it. This is a good thing.

And I am a licensed master EC with over 25 years of experience.
 

dduffee260

Senior Member
Location
Texas
They don't bother me but I am showing that I am doing my job by approving code compliant installations and leaving my opinion out of it. This is a good thing.

And I am a licensed master EC with over 25 years of experience.

Then I totally misunderstood you original post. I read it as a statement of complaint.

By the way your original post and signature contradict each other. Yourr original post you state " Do call me to ask me for a clarification on an issue." ..Yet on your signature you have " Always consult your local code enforcement department for direction."...Which one do we do here?
 
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electricmanscott

Senior Member
Location
Boston, MA
Your state MA has adopted the 2006 IECC with some ammendments and additions and it is incorporated into your electrical code requirements. Much of it is spelled out in 780 CMR Seventh Edition. I would assume that you are familiar with that.

Also, if you are installing an ADA compliant bathroom, work area or public place, where do you install the equipment at? What height & depth? Do you follow the DOJ's ADAAG or the local ANSI-117.1? The switch height requirement, receptacle location, hand dryer height are all regulated but not by the NEC. Do you ask the GC where he wants it, do you know where it belongs or do you just install it wherever you want?

What is the maximum watts per square foot are you allowed to install in a business office space? It is part of your own code.


I didn't know we were having a "code off" today. You win you know more code names,numbers and letters than me. :roll:

The fact is most guys in the field don't need to know all that mumbo jumbo you're spewing.

Resi stuff is pretty straight foward and commercial stuff is generally designed and speced by people that actually need to know most of those things you point out. The guy installing can follow the prints. If I happen to be the designer then I will make damn sure I find out what I need to know before I put my name onm it. If it gets to the point where I have to spend more time in school learning a never ending barage of codes instead of actually working I'd rather find something else to do.

Most importantly, more codes does not automatically equal more safety or a better installation.
 

dduffee260

Senior Member
Location
Texas
By the way your original post and signature contradict each other. Yourr original post you state " Do call me to ask me for a clarification on an issue." ..Yet on your signature you have " Always consult your local code enforcement department for direction."...Which one do we do here?

Sorry I misread the statement. I am totally wrong and retract this. Please accept my apologies and don't " red tag " me for my error.
 

ivsenroute

Senior Member
Location
Florida
Then I totally misunderstood you original post. I read it as a statement of complaint.

By the way your original post and signature contradict each other. Yourr original post you state " Do call me to ask me for a clarification on an issue." ..Yet on your signature you have " Always consult your local code enforcement department for direction."...Which one do we do here?

I still keep hearing about these red tags but don't know what they are. Never saw one.
 

dduffee260

Senior Member
Location
Texas
I still keep hearing about these red tags but don't know what they are. Never saw one.

In our area when work is found to be inadequate or not in compliance the inspector will leave a " stop work " or " red tag " on the site. Should all compliance be met then they leave a " green tag " which implies that they work they inspected is within code and acceptable. Green is good, red is bad. I have seen both.
 
...and commercial stuff is generally designed and speced by people that actually need to know most of those things you point out. The guy installing can follow the prints.

And here we run into the problem of following non-code-compliant prints- do you install "per code" or "per print" (and whether or not the prints were stamped/engineered or not). Is the inspector obligated to inspect just what they see in the wall or to read the prints for approval of an otherwise non-compliant installation? Different jobs and areas of the country will have different customs about it.

So, instead of griping about whether or not the inspector should even notice the missing smokes, let's be sensible and assume that -if- the j-boxes are present, and -if- your area does interconnected detectors, -and- there's only 12-2 present, then someone messed up.

Now, should an electrical-only inspector fail this? Maybe or maybe not, but at least they ought to tell the EC that they're going to be a problem when the building inspector visits.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
my $.02 on this thread.

The OP is complaining about repeated violations that he sees frequently, but it bringing it to the attention of everyone that views this site, that is OK for the reasons this site exists, but to solve his problem he needs to bring it to the attention of the EC's he inspects for, they may not necessarily visit this forum.

I live in Nebraska the State Electrical Division here in the past has published newsletters and sent them to every licensed individual both by email and snail mail. They have not been doing this as often as they used to but I think it is a good idea. Included in the newsletters were often times articles written by inspectors with information about things they commonly see that need correction.

As far as people repeating violations over and over I don't know what to do about that. I will change how I do something if it is pointed out to me that it is wrong (and has good reason for being wrong, not an inspector with his own code). You would think penalties for non compliance alone would make people change their methods, but yet there always some that just want to be difficult or plain don't care.
 

ivsenroute

Senior Member
Location
Florida
Since we don't have state licensed ECs, we are behind the 8ball with communication.

Only about 3 municipalities in our area has a testing procedure for their license. The rest of the dozens of munis have nothing. State registration is only proof of insurance.

I can break this down even further:

1 of the cities that licenses has not only a testing procedure but also requires CEUs in order to renew your license. Education is the key.

The other, although has a good testing procedure for journeyman and master, does not require CEUs.

At the IAEI meetings and training seminars, we are loaded with ECs who need credits. These ECs are primarily from the city that requires CEUs.

I have 4 groups of people that I inspect:

1) Has a legit license that involved testing and must attend CEU's to maintain the license. This group is the best performer for code compliance and knowledge. Very few deficiencies on inspections and always up to date on most issues.

2) Has a license that required testing but may not have ever attended a class since they dont need CEUs. This group is good but lacks the up to date knowledge that the group with CEU requirements has.

3) The EC who has not tested and stays out of the cities that require a license. They may have a local license or state registration but they have been under the radar and have a multitude of excuses why they never got their license in one of the local cities that has a program. This group typically learns by failing inspections and is more inclined to ask 20 questions before they bid a job or call for an inspection.

4) DIY's. Once in a blue, and I mean very blue moon, someone actually has some sort of a clue.

So not all of us are inspecting in areas where there is a state license and ceu requirements. This system does not work well and is in need of repair. This is probably why we get so many phone calls to ask how to do something.

I envy the inspectors who work in states or areas where the majority of ECs are educated and up to date.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
Since we don't have state licensed ECs, we are behind the 8ball with communication.

Only about 3 municipalities in our area has a testing procedure for their license. The rest of the dozens of munis have nothing. State registration is only proof of insurance.

I can break this down even further:

1 of the cities that licenses has not only a testing procedure but also requires CEUs in order to renew your license. Education is the key.

The other, although has a good testing procedure for journeyman and master, does not require CEUs.

At the IAEI meetings and training seminars, we are loaded with ECs who need credits. These ECs are primarily from the city that requires CEUs.

I have 4 groups of people that I inspect:

1) Has a legit license that involved testing and must attend CEU's to maintain the license. This group is the best performer for code compliance and knowledge. Very few deficiencies on inspections and always up to date on most issues.

2) Has a license that required testing but may not have ever attended a class since they dont need CEUs. This group is good but lacks the up to date knowledge that the group with CEU requirements has.

3) The EC who has not tested and stays out of the cities that require a license. They may have a local license or state registration but they have been under the radar and have a multitude of excuses why they never got their license in one of the local cities that has a program. This group typically learns by failing inspections and is more inclined to ask 20 questions before they bid a job or call for an inspection.

4) DIY's. Once in a blue, and I mean very blue moon, someone actually has some sort of a clue.

So not all of us are inspecting in areas where there is a state license and ceu requirements. This system does not work well and is in need of repair. This is probably why we get so many phone calls to ask how to do something.

I envy the inspectors who work in states or areas where the majority of ECs are educated and up to date.

starting to make sense now there were a lot similar problems here back when they first started inspecting dwellings. There were lots of people both licensed and non licensed that were used to doing it their own way and were somewhat reluctant to try to change. State Electrical Division kept fairly firm feet with enforcement and has gotten to where there are little or no licensed people even trying to do work where permits are required, and enough non qualified people seem to have strayed away from doing electrical work, there are a few though that need to have a lawsuit before they will stop.

The solution to your problem is unfortunately going to have to go through your local lawmakers and or AHJ director(s) before you see much improvement in installations.
 

dduffee260

Senior Member
Location
Texas
As mentioned in an earlier post we are building an educational classroom building. We are going to try and put this up as quickly as possible while keeping attention to quality. I can almost bet that I will be in close contact with this forum as the questions arise. I can assure you one thing, the person who is likely to learn the most out if this will be me.
 

nhfire77

Senior Member
Location
NH
"Change is coming to your town soon..."


That's your opinion. Change in New England comes at you like a screaming herd of turtles!!!

Just becuase the state has adopted something doesn't mean inspectors care about in forcing it. I'm not justifying it, just telling you what I see.
 

KevinVost

Senior Member
Location
Las Vegas
To add to the previous post directed at the OP...

I think we should also know what your electricians are officialy legally bound to as far as codes go.



In my area we use the Massachusetts Electrical Code. This is just the NEC with some amendments thrown in. That is our electrical code. That is what our electrical inspectors base their inspections on.

If I butcher a beam, the electrical inspector can not faill me
If I don't install smoke detectors, the electrical inspector can not fail me
If a cut a hole in a firewall the electrical inspector can not fail me
If I don't firestop a penetration where it is required the electrical inspector can not fail me.

I highlighted these individual statements to point attention to Art 300.21 (2005 NEC). This is a code section that I direct EC's to all the time, and yes, in our jurisdiction the electrical inspector is allowed to fail an inspection if any penetration in a fire rated assembly is not sealed/protected.
 
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