50Hz Vs 60Hz

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Hameedulla-Ekhlas

Senior Member
Location
AFG
Greeting all,
Hope you all are fine and good. I have one Question regarding to frequency and voltage as below.


In Asia, Europe and some other countries there is a 50 Hz and in some other countries there is 60 Hz frequency.

Can anyone advise me the advantage of 60Hz over 50Hz

same also in voltage as below;

In some countries there is

50Hz
380 Volt ( line to line ) 3ph
220 volt ( line to neutral ) 1ph

In some other there is

60Hz
240 volt (line to line ) 3ph
120 volt ( line to line ) 1ph

So, please advise me the main advantage of 60Hz, 120 volt 1ph or 240 volt 3ph Over the 50Hz, 220volt 1ph, 380 3ph.

Eventhough we know, using 60Hz, 120 volt 1ph or 240volt 3ph cost us much more than 50Hz, 240 volt 1ph, 380 volt 3ph in underground ditribution and cable sizing.
 

shamsdebout

Senior Member
Location
Macon,GA
That is a good question, I am properly way off with my reasoning so bear with me. I would think to generate power at 50 Hz it would be cheaper than 60 Hz, since you need less field poles and the mechanical speed of the rotor would be slower for 50 Hz than for 60 Hz.
 

Hameedulla-Ekhlas

Senior Member
Location
AFG
Dear augie47,
Thanks for your useful information and I read it. But still I did not get the satisfactory answer the real advantage 60 Hz over 50 Hz or 120volt,1ph over 220 volt 1ph.
Eventhough 60 Hz cost us much more than 50Hz in distribution and cable sizing.

I remeber that when I had asked this question from my teacher, he told me that nothing advantage except safety.

Can you explain any exact advantage please?



Dear shams,
Good information but it is about the energy conversion system which we know

frequency(f) = n(revolution per minute) * P(number of Pole)/ 120

Yes, you are right the speed differs and I am agree with you. But my question is about the advantage of 120 volt 1ph, 60Hz over 220 volt 1ph,50Hz

Eventhough it 60Hz cost much more than 50 Hz in distribution underground and cable sizing.
 

shamsdebout

Senior Member
Location
Macon,GA
This info is from a fairly old source, 1950's:
In most foreign countries it is 50 cycles. As
a general-purpose distribution frequency 60 cycles has an
economic advantage over 50 cycles in that it permits a
maximum speed of 3600 rpm as against 3000 rpm. Where
a large number of distribution transformers are used a
considerable economic gain is obtained in that the saving
in materials of 60-cycle transformers over 50-cycle transformers
may amount to 10 to 15 percent. This is because
in a transformer the induced voltage is proportional to the
total flux-linkage and the frequency. The higher the
frequency, therefore, the smaller the cross-sectional area
of the core, and the smaller the core the shorter the length
of the coils. There is a saving, therefore, in both iron and
copper.

- I am not sure if those savings are current now.
 

Besoeker

Senior Member
Location
UK
Yes, you are right the speed differs and I am agree with you. But my question is about the advantage of 120 volt 1ph, 60Hz over 220 volt 1ph,50Hz

Eventhough it 60Hz cost much more than 50 Hz in distribution underground and cable sizing.
One possible advantage is that 60Hz equipment like motors and transformers can be smaller, Higher frequencies generally allows size to be reduced. That's why, for example, chargers have switch mode power supplies running at much higher frequencies than the utility supply.

And, with 50Hz, is that you get nice numbers. A half cycle is 0.01s or 10 ms.
Not the ever recurring 8.33333333333333 ms.
:grin:

On the other hand, maybe there is a logical progression:
60 cycles in a second, 60 seconds in a minute, 60 minutes in an hour, 60 hours in.....oops.....2.5 days.

I'm not sure that one frequency has any clear advantages over the other.
And Japan has both.
 

Jraef

Moderator, OTD
Staff member
Location
San Francisco Bay Area, CA, USA
Occupation
Electrical Engineer
This comes up a LOT in international forums. I'll give my same answer.

It's pointless to discuss it; the difference is irrelevant.

You have what you have. Nobody gets the opportunity to choose one or the other, the last time that happened was in Japan after WWII when a lot of American generation and distribution equipment got installed under the Marshal Plan and now Japan suffers from having roughly 1/3 of their grid at 60Hz vs 50Hz for the rest of the country.

The history is only of amusing interest. it goes back to Westinghouse in the US choosing 60Hz because it matched existing mechanical equipment speeds, and AEG doing roughly the same thing in Germany. Nobody discussed the issues at the time and the decisions had nothing to do with efficiency.
 

broadgage

Senior Member
Location
London, England
Both 50 cycles and 60 cycles have advantages, but there is not much difference in costs etc in the real world.
Both systems remain very popular, if one system was much better then it would have replaced the other.

60 cycles permits of smaller and therefore cheaper transformers and generators, though the gain is small.
60 cycles gives less flicker on lamps.

60 cycles increases losses by induction and capacitance
Transformers emit noise at twice line frequency, this is more obtrusive at higher frequencies.

As regards voltages, higher voltages are more economical in house wireing, and allow the POCO to supply an area via fewer, larger transformers, which tends to be cheaper and more efficient than numerous small units.

Lower voltages are safer, less of a concern these days with strict codes/regulations, but certainly a consideration in the early days.
Lower voltage incandescent lamps used to be cheaper and more efficient than higher voltages.

Over the years, the trend has been towards higher voltages.
In the USA 2 wire 120 volt service was replaced with 3 wire 120/240, or with three phase 120/208.

In Europe many supplies were changed from 3 phase 4 wire at 127/220 volt to 3 phase 4 wire at 220/380 volt.

In the UK most early supplies were 3 wire DC at 120/0/120 volts, later changed to 240/0/240 volts.

In countries that have a mixture of 110/120 volt systems, and 220/240 volt systems, the usual policy is that new schemes will be at the higher voltage.
I am not aware of any major nation that previosly used a mix of voltages, and then standardised on the lower one.

3 phase supplies are cheaper to generate and transmit than single phase, and virtualy all single phase house services are obtained from 3 phase systems.
3 phase is preferable to single phase for motors and is therefore in near universal use in factories.
3 phase is seldom used in the home unless large central A/C plant is installed, in which case it is prefered.
 
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shamsdebout

Senior Member
Location
Macon,GA
I thought this was amusing:
The rate of oscillation of the electricity in a power systems around the world
is either 50 or 60 cycles per second (50 or 60 hertz ? oscillation rate is named
after an early electrical scientist, Hertz). ?American? type systems oscillate at
60 hertz, ?European? type systems at 50 hertz. Both work just as well, and
neither frequency is noticeably better than the other, despite what one might
hear from heavily opinionated ?experts.? Anytime one finds an engineer who
insists one is substantially better than the other it will turn out that he or she
?grew up? on that type of system and has a rather narrow understanding of the other type of system?s capabilities.
 

mivey

Senior Member
I thought this was amusing:
The rate of oscillation of the electricity in a power systems around the world
is either 50 or 60 cycles per second (50 or 60 hertz ? oscillation rate is named
after an early electrical scientist, Hertz). ?American? type systems oscillate at
60 hertz, ?European? type systems at 50 hertz. Both work just as well, and
neither frequency is noticeably better than the other, despite what one might
hear from heavily opinionated ?experts.? Anytime one finds an engineer who
insists one is substantially better than the other it will turn out that he or she
?grew up? on that type of system and has a rather narrow understanding of the other type of system?s capabilities.
You are getting close to meddling. :grin:
 

Hameedulla-Ekhlas

Senior Member
Location
AFG
thanks all for their nice information and I really appreciate it.

Incase of voltage some countries use 1ph 120volt and some others use 1ph 220volt. If we pay attention for 1ph 120 volt it is much costly than 220 volt in underground distribution as well as cable size.

Specially in USA, they use 120volt 1ph and I am thinking there must be a major advantage.

Can anybody give more explaination about this
 

shamsdebout

Senior Member
Location
Macon,GA
I don't see any advantage of 120V over 220V. I am not sure if insulation requirements differ, I know you need more insultation at higher voltages.
 

zappy

Senior Member
Location
CA.
Greeting all,
Hope you all are fine and good. I have one Question regarding to frequency and voltage as below.


In Asia, Europe and some other countries there is a 50 Hz and in some other countries there is 60 Hz frequency.

Can anyone advise me the advantage of 60Hz over 50Hz

same also in voltage as below;

In some countries there is

50Hz
380 Volt ( line to line ) 3ph
220 volt ( line to neutral ) 1ph

In some other there is

60Hz
240 volt (line to line ) 3ph
120 volt ( line to line ) 1ph

So, please advise me the main advantage of 60Hz, 120 volt 1ph or 240 volt 3ph Over the 50Hz, 220volt 1ph, 380 3ph.

Eventhough we know, using 60Hz, 120 volt 1ph or 240volt 3ph cost us much more than 50Hz, 240 volt 1ph, 380 volt 3ph in underground ditribution and cable sizing.

Line to line 120v.? What country uses this? What is it line to neutral? Just curious. I have a tea pot made in poland, it says on the bottom, 220v. I use a adapter and plug it into 120v. It works fine. I think it's made for 220v. line to neutral?
 

shamsdebout

Senior Member
Location
Macon,GA
Line to line 120v.? What country uses this? What is it line to neutral? Just curious. I have a tea pot made in poland, it says on the bottom, 220v. I use a adapter and plug it into 120v. It works fine. I think it's made for 220v. line to neutral?

I think it is made for a voltage range of 120V - 250V.
 

Jraef

Moderator, OTD
Staff member
Location
San Francisco Bay Area, CA, USA
Occupation
Electrical Engineer
Again, there is no real advantage one way or the other, they each have benefits and detractors. It's just more interesting history.

Edison chose 110VDC for the first lighting systems in New York because that was the generator voltage of the dynamo he bought from Werner von Siemens, who built them for telegraphs. Westinghouse later chose 110VAC simply because Edison made all the light bulbs at the time and a light bulb knows not the A or the D in the C. So we ended up with 110V (later 120V) as a default household voltage from the earliest times. In the US, telegraphs and telephones preceded widespread electrical distribution so poles for the transformers were already there and it was easy to run higher (medium) voltage down the street and put a transformer on the pole to feed a few houses.

In Europe, widespread electrical distribution came later and 220V was chosen simply because it meant fewer local distribution transformers; they could distribute 380V 3 phase down the street and drop one phase + neutral to a residence w/o the need for another transformer. That works better if the existing infrastructure has less availability of hardware (poles).
 

Besoeker

Senior Member
Location
UK
From what I've read, there were many complaints about filament flicker from incandescents on 50Hz supplies.
Not that I've noticed.
Note that the frequency of the power dissipated in the incandescent filament is actually at 100 Hz and it's thermal time constant is, I think, much greater than the difference between 0.01s and 0.008333s.

I have read recently (probably in the last couple of years) about some people being sensitive to the flicker from CFLs but I don't buy that. The electronic ballast runs typically at tens of kHz and the persistence of the phosphors is far longer than that.
 

skeshesh

Senior Member
Location
Los Angeles, Ca
Not that I've noticed.
Note that the frequency of the power dissipated in the incandescent filament is actually at 100 Hz and it's thermal time constant is, I think, much greater than the difference between 0.01s and 0.008333s.

When strobe synchronization for fire alarm systems is required per NFPA72, pretty much all the data sheets I've seen on sync-modules state synching the flash within 10ms, so I think your observation that it shouldn't be a problem is correct.
 
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