480 Volt Hot Tap

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Fulthrotl

~Autocorrect is My Worst Enema.~
C-10 friend of mine has a need for someone who can hot tap a bus
with 4/0 copper. location is in so. calif.

work amounts to landing a ground and three hots in an underground
fed POCO pull section. ground is on bottom of pull section, pre punched
bus bars on top of section. you'll need to hipress on a lug, and bolt
it to the bus bars, one 4/0 per phase. so, 4 landings total, three hot.

health care facility, ahead of the main, POCO service xfmr is fused
about 200' away on secondaries. 3,000 amp 480 bus, fault current
is going to be up there a ways. so don't screw up would be the operative
word.

m.v. herzog was on deck to do it, and they had to cancel. i've got a friend
who is a MV cable splicer, and excellent craftsman, and he's busy and
can't do it.

i've got the equipment, skill set, and am not available in the time frame
he needs. figure a couple hours work for two guys, about $3k.

anyone interested, PM me, and i will put you in touch with the fellow.

as for NFPA 70E, compliance is up to the person doing the work.
i've not seen the site, just a verbal description. i'm just putting it out
there if someone wants a quick little job for a fair piece of change.


randy
 

don_resqcapt19

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Illinois
Occupation
retired electrician
Just because it is a health care facility does not mean you can't take an outage. Even in a health care facility this type of work is not permitted while the equipment is energized.

If they can't take a planned outage, what are they going to do if there in an incident because they insisted on not taking a planned outage? This unplanned outage could last days or even weeks.
 
I am not saying I would be running to the front of the line for this one, but the aforementioned rules would not apply to someone who is not an employee such as an owner of a business or officer/member of a corporation.
 

don_resqcapt19

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Staff member
Location
Illinois
Occupation
retired electrician
I am not saying I would be running to the front of the line for this one, but the aforementioned rules would not apply to someone who is not an employee such as an owner of a business or officer/member of a corporation.
That doesn't change the risk of an unplanned outage if something goes wrong.
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
I am not saying I would be running to the front of the line for this one, but the aforementioned rules would not apply to someone who is not an employee such as an owner of a business or officer/member of a corporation.

Do burns, permanent disability and death apply to owners?
 

mivey

Senior Member
Seems like ahead of the main means the facility could, and should, run on standby power while work was being done.
 

peter d

Senior Member
Location
New England
not legally, only in the darwinian sense.
OSHA will not fine your employer nor jail them for the negligent death of your burnt, dead carcass.

and a 40 cal suit can be repurposed as a convenient body bag. the caveat "don't screw up"
wasn't just a clever turn of phrase.

Just curious where you buy replacement bus bars for 3,000 amp gear if you melt them down. I'm guessing Depot doesn't carry those on the shelf?
 
That doesn't change the risk of an unplanned outage if something goes wrong.

I agree, but my statement was accurate.

Do burns, permanent disability and death apply to owners?

I made no assertion or opinion as to the advisability of doing this hot. Again, my statement was accurate.

For those of us are not under OSHA no work hot rules, it is up to the individual to assess the risks of a hot work situation. I believe a blanket "no hot work" policy is not logical - there is just way too wide a range of risk to make a blanket statement. Personally, I dont have any issue with most 120V to ground hot work. I ran a 4 foot chainsaw mill for 2 hours today cutting maple slabs, and I ride motorcycles - I dont mind the 120 to ground hot work occasionally :angel: I would decline most/all 277/480 hot work.
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
I agree, but my statement was accurate.

As far as OSHA applying to you as a matter of law, yes it was accurate. No one said it was not.

Yet very often contractually you will be required to comply with those rule anyway.

Again, my statement was accurate.

And again neither. Don or myself said it was not

For those of us are not under OSHA no work hot rules, it is up to the individual to assess the risks of a hot work situation.

Unless the job you are own requires compliance, most decent GCs and industrial locations do require it.


I believe a blanket "no hot work" policy is not logical - there is just way too wide a range of risk to make a blanket statement.

If you have employees you have no legal choice but to have a no hot work policy. (other than the specific allowances for it)
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
GC's? I suppose there may be some that know a little on electrical safety rules, in particular those that mostly do heavier commercial or industrial type work.

The client probably has little clue on recognized electrical safe practices if they don't employ workers that routinely do much for electrical work tasks. Some of this comes down to how big of a parent company they may have. Bigger companies will still have enough required safety training and resources for training material that the topic will at least come up even if it is something that doesn't apply to them all that often.
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
GC's? I suppose there may be some that know a little on electrical safety rules, in particular those that mostly do heavier commercial or industrial type work.

Yes, GCs, yes industrial, yes large retail chains, all those often make the company I work for sign documents agreeing to follow OSHA and 70E.

It is self protection in case things go wrong.

The client probably has little clue on recognized electrical safe practices if they don't employ workers that routinely do much for electrical work tasks. Some of this comes down to how big of a parent company they may have. Bigger companies will still have enough required safety training and resources for training material that the topic will at least come up even if it is something that doesn't apply to them all that often.

So you figure a hospital with a 3,000 amp service has no one in charge of OSHA compliance?

Maybe that is the case in your area but not here.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
Yes, GCs, yes industrial, yes large retail chains, all those often make the company I work for sign documents agreeing to follow OSHA and 70E.

It is self protection in case things go wrong.



So you figure a hospital with a 3,000 amp service has no one in charge of OSHA compliance?

Maybe that is the case in your area but not here.

I had a small community hospital as one of my regular clients. They are now closed in part because of some newer health care laws that we are likely forbidden to discuss put too much burden on a small community hospital that already had too many burdens. Service wasn't 3000 amps, was still both 480/277 and 208/120 present, their maintenance man only understood how to fix simple things like replace a switch or receptacle for the most part. I'm sure he maybe was instructed to turn the power off for those tasks, but had no clue what I should or shouldn't be doing if I was doing something beyond those tasks he did. He may or may not have known about wearing PPE when working live, but probably little or nothing about when it may be acceptable to work live.

I do have a couple schools as regular clients, pretty much similar thing at those places. They have little or no clue on what safety precautions I should be following from what I can tell, and they are always dealing with safety - just not electrical worker safety. But one must also understand the small community schools out here are generally shrinking in enrollment, and they have to focus on survival of their school district - which has an effect on most everything they do, something schools in higher population areas don't have to deal with.

POCO's are the ones I run into with the most strict electrical work rules, yet they work things hot all the time and for some reason the rules for them seem to be a little different in this hot work area. I do see them wanting to shut things down though more then they used to.

A POCO lineman was electrocuted a few days ago in a nearby town, all I have heard at this point is their main task was replacing a pole, and the guy was in the bucket of a bucket truck when it happened.
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
I had a small community hospital as one of my regular clients. They are now closed in part because of some newer health care laws that we are likely forbidden to discuss put too much burden on a small community hospital that already had too many burdens. Service wasn't 3000 amps, was still both 480/277 and 208/120 present, their maintenance man only understood how to fix simple things like replace a switch or receptacle for the most part. I'm sure he maybe was instructed to turn the power off for those tasks, but had no clue what I should or shouldn't be doing if I was doing something beyond those tasks he did. He may or may not have known about wearing PPE when working live, but probably little or nothing about when it may be acceptable to work live.

I do have a couple schools as regular clients, pretty much similar thing at those places. They have little or no clue on what safety precautions I should be following from what I can tell, and they are always dealing with safety - just not electrical worker safety. But one must also understand the small community schools out here are generally shrinking in enrollment, and they have to focus on survival of their school district - which has an effect on most everything they do, something schools in higher population areas don't have to deal with.

If all that is true that is a problem at least as far as for profit Hospital, they like all businesses are required to comply with OSHA and 70e. One of those requirements would be a written safety policy and that policy will require compliance with the rules.

As you always point out you are out in the sticks so I have no trouble believing it's being ignored.

That is not the case where I am and I doubt it is the case where Randy is.
 

sparkyrick

Senior Member
Location
Appleton, Wi
No way in HELL, would I do that live. One simple mistake and you could destroy the gear and have a high probability of personal injury or death.
 
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