Does this panel need to be moved, or is it grandfathered in?

Status
Not open for further replies.
Was doing some work in my plant and came across this panel hidden way up in the ceiling.

IMAG1177.jpg

The maintenance team told me it was just an empty junction box, but when I investigated it, it was a full live 120/208 panel.


No main breaker, just main lugs.

The panel only has 2 circuits that are in use:
(1) 30A 208V Breaker to power a rooftop fan unit
(1) 30A 208V Breaker to power a drop that energizes a medium sized pressbrake machine


There are no other disconnects/OCPD for those two circuits other than the breakers themselves.

Does this fall under 240.24 (max ocpd 6'7") or a different article? It seems sketchy to me that the only way you can turn off the power to those 2 units is by getting on an extension ladder.
I have asked some other electricians, and they seem to think that the code only applies to dwelling units, and that the panel is fine where it is. They suggested just running two disconnects off the panel at a readily accessible height and leaving the panel as is.

If it is against code, I will have to move it - however management needs proper NEC justification for me to begin the work.

Thanks!
 

charlie b

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Lockport, IL
Occupation
Retired Electrical Engineer
I think you have the right code article. 240.24(A) has the 6'-7" rule, and none of the four exceptions apply to this installation. But what is the hazard in leaving it where it is? My best answer is that some future electrician will think it is easier (and perhaps even safer) to do work on the equipment live, rather than having to climb a ladder to turn off the breaker and install the LOTO tag. That person will be at an unnecessary risk of electric shock because of the location of this panel.
 
The issue I have with leaving it there is the fact that there are no other disconnects for either the machine or the rooftop unit. You can't really tell from the picture, but the panel is located in between 2 machines, so in order to get up there to kill a breaker, you have to make sure that there is no one using the machines and grab a ladder from across the facility. It's not a huge issue, but it does not seem "readily accessible" in the event of an emergency (and this place is obsessed with safety culture).

I was thinking of circumventing the moving of the entire panel by simply dropping two 30A disconnects down the wall. That way at least the equipment can be easily serviced without having to get on the ladder. I am fairly confident that no other circuits from that panel will ever be used.
 

charlie b

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Lockport, IL
Occupation
Retired Electrical Engineer
Circuit breakers are not intended to be a means for turning off power in an emergency. Their primary purpose is to protect the branch circuit conductors against overcurrent. They also can perform the function of keeping the circuit turned off during maintenance, but that is not an emergency operation. My recommendation is to use the existing panel as a junction box, and extend all circuit conductors (including the feeder to the panel and both branch circuits fed from the panel) to a new panel located within the maximum height requirement.
 

ADub

Senior Member
Location
Midwest
Occupation
Estimator/Project Manager
If you really work for a company obsessed with safety culture you shouldn't have to fight to get this corrected. I'd love for some gravy work like that to fall in my lap


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
If you really work for a company obsessed with safety culture you shouldn't have to fight to get this corrected. I'd love for some gravy work like that to fall in my lap

It's not really a fight. I usually get carte blanche with electrical issues - but the plant manager is your typical penny-pinching corporate weenie, so I get a lot of "why do you need to do this? it's been like that for 25 years" until I say, "It's a violation of NEC XXXX and poses an electrical/safety issue. It may have been ok in 1974, but the code has changed since then."
 

mbrooke

Batteries Included
Location
United States
Occupation
Technician
Probably not going to happen here, but if a drop ceiling gets put in everyone will wish that panel was down low when its long forgotten.
 

jumper

Senior Member
I think you have the right code article. 240.24(A) has the 6'-7" rule, and none of the four exceptions apply to this installation. But what is the hazard in leaving it where it is? My best answer is that some future electrician will think it is easier (and perhaps even safer) to do work on the equipment live, rather than having to climb a ladder to turn off the breaker and install the LOTO tag. That person will be at an unnecessary risk of electric shock because of the location of this panel.

Well said.:thumbsup:

As a field grunt I can easily say that that scenario is plausible.
 

jaylectricity

Senior Member
Location
Massachusetts
Occupation
licensed journeyman electrician
So what is protecting the feeder and where is that OCPD? Because you could easily kill the power from there, especially if it's just the two circuits.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
It's not really a fight. I usually get carte blanche with electrical issues - but the plant manager is your typical penny-pinching corporate weenie, so I get a lot of "why do you need to do this? it's been like that for 25 years" until I say, "It's a violation of NEC XXXX and poses an electrical/safety issue. It may have been ok in 1974, but the code has changed since then."
As long as the penny pinching boss is explained a scenario like charlie mentioned in post 2, then let him decide if it is worth a few hundred dollars to move it or if it is worth the potential risk of getting someone injured or killed over it and costing a lot more when that does happen.


You could make it NEC compliant by building a platform in front of it and make OSHA happy with a properly designed stairway to get to the platform, but moving it may cost less.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top