Power is Off??

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badbrad

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I am a home inspector and I had a weird inspection today. It was a mid 1950 home with multiple homeowner un permitted additions. There is an older Culter Hammer panel on the home with an overhead service. The ground rod is missing; the grounds and neutrals are separated from the panel. The galvanized water lines are bonded, the gas line is not bonded.
When I first entered the home the realtor indicated the power was on. However the power was off so I turned on the main breaker. I went inside to check the lights and found that lights were still off and the power was apparently off at the meter.
On a whim I used my sniffer to check to see if the light bulbs were burned out and discovered the metal canopy on the light fixture was energized. I checked further and found that all the ceiling mounted light fixtures caused my sniffer to light up. Not the bulb socket mind you, but the metal components on the fixture. Upon checking the 2 prong outlets with my sniffer about half would show power. I had an extra 3 prong tester with me so I broke off the ground leg to test the 2 prong outlet and found no power at the outlets.
The appliances, heater, cooler and everything else were inoperative.
There is no wiring in the crawlspace and there is no access to the attic for inspection. I suspect at least some knob and tube is present but the system has been upgraded sometime in the past.
The entire home has been covered with aluminum siding that extends down to about 2 inches into the soil. I am worried that if the bonding is not proper then the siding could become energized or something?like phantom current from the soil turning the home into a giant microwave oven or something.
By the end of the day the utility company was saying it is impossible to show power in a home with the power off, that I must have faulty equipment. The electrician is saying he cannot find anything wrong (after the power was turned on at the meter). But I know my sniffer was going nuts. I am pretty sure I can tell when the little yellow light is flashing. What voltage does it take to set off a sniffer? How much current does it take to light up a 3 prong tester?
I am worried there may be a phantom current or some type of deterioration on the utility pole with an open neutral. I know something is wrong but it is way outside the scope of my training to go any farther. I am worried there may be a significant safety issue that may go undiscovered if I can?t provide a good explanation.
What is going on??
 

Sierrasparky

Senior Member
Location
USA
Occupation
Electrician ,contractor
If the electrical is beyond your expertise than I suggest you hire a qualified electrician to help you out. Seems like one needs to check further as there is a High degree chance of a big problem.
 

jim dungar

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Wisconsin
Occupation
PE (Retired) - Power Systems
Dont encourage him. He needs to get an electrician in on this.
He did call an electrician.
badbrad said:
The electrician is saying he cannot find anything wrong (after the power was turned on at the meter).

The question is why a non-contact voltage detector might show grounded parts as being live. It has nothing to do with actually troubleshooting.
 

George Stolz

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Windsor, CO NEC: 2017
Occupation
Service Manager
It falls within the occupational duties of a home inspector to perform the tasks he has described, and to open a panel cover and test for voltage inside a home.

Treatment of New Members

If you don't wish to help the OP, that's fine, move on to the next thread. There is no reason to belittle him.
 

infinity

Moderator
Staff member
Location
New Jersey
Occupation
Journeyman Electrician
It falls within the occupational duties of a home inspector to perform the tasks he has described, and to open a panel cover and test for voltage inside a home.

Treatment of New Members

If you don't wish to help the OP, that's fine, move on to the next thread. There is no reason to belittle him.


That's the way that i see it, part of his normal inspection.
 

buzzbar

Senior Member
Location
Olympia, WA
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
Yes, the question is about the 'sniffer' tester, or what I've always called a 'tick tracer'. I certainly don't trust those type of testers for anything other than a casual test for power. Does anyone know anything about what can cause them to 'detect' power?
 

AV ELECTRIC

Senior Member
The grounding electrode may be your water pipe check to see it hasn't been changed to pvc. You cant use your sniffer as a primary means of testing you need at least a multi meter or wiggy . to remove the ground on your tester tells me you dont have the wright testing equipment it sounds like you may have an understanding of the basics but should not get involved in detailed trouble shooting unless you have additional training . The electrician you hired should be qualified to inspect the electrical if your not confident with that get a second opinion.
 

badbrad

Member
Late Last Night

Late Last Night

I was very tired by the time I started this thread. It was a long day did not get home till 10:00 pm. I should have been a little clearer in my original post.

I need help to insure someone does not get electrocuted in the home I inspected yesterday.

The realtor is content to just ignore the problem and take his commission. The electrician that was sent out to the job did not have all the information to understand my concerns. The word I was looking for last night was "Stray Voltage."

We are all aware of the problems with dairy cows in this regard, but there is less information regarding stray voltage in homes. I was hoping that some of the big guns on this forum could point me to some information I could use to support my position.

I am well aware of the limitations regarding the use of a sniffer for diagnostic evaluations. I use my sniffer to keep from being electrocuted while in attics or crawl spaces. It is an important tool for home inspectors for personal safety; having said that it can also be used in limited functions to determine if there is power at a location. It tells me if it is on or off, no more, no less.

In this case I had previous experience in two homes where there were faulty neutrals in the utility company service. One showed all sorts of weird results in the home one of which was that the kitchen hood started when the ceiling lights were turned on....

Another was an old block house on an abandoned dairy that showed exactly the same effects where the metal parts of the light fixtures were energized when the main breaker was turned off.

So now I can't help myself. Every time I go to an older home I check the lights with a sniffer to see if the metal components are energized, not the bulb sockets. In this case all the ceiling lights showed power and some of the 2 prong outlets. If this is a static condition then why would it show on ALL the ceiling lights and not one? Or conversely, why only on some of the outlets. In addition, I believe it takes about 50 volts to set off my sniffer based on fooling around with it several years ago.

I took the dead front cover off the main panel and checked the main breaker for power. The sniffer showed power. So now I am wondering if the meter is on. None of the equipment will operate so either the power is off or there is something else going on.

The neutrals and the grounding conductors are not connected to the panel. There is no ground rod that I can find. The galvanized water lines are bonded but I cannot determine for sure it they actually enter the soil. The gas line is not bonded. The exterior is covered with retrofit aluminum siding that extends into the soil and may or may not be bonded.

This could be an indication of an area wide stray voltage problem that should be evaluated by the utility company but I am hesitant to open this can of worms without some supporting information.

I do not pretend to be an electrician. I do not care to get involved in the details of wiring and the minutia of diagnostics. But I do have a healthy understanding of basic electricity and inspection protocol. As a home inspector my job is to identify material defects and recommend further evaluation by qualified specialists. In this case I am worried there will be no follow up and somebody may well get hurt.

Please do not trivialize my findings.

I greatly appreciate any help you guys can provide.

Brad Deal
20/20 Home Inspections
 

AV ELECTRIC

Senior Member
Its great that you take your job so seriously and you want to protect the public . Trouble shooting is one of the most difficult to do in the electrical field it takes training and lots of experience to get to what your asking at this time . Ive seen thee prong outlets showing ground on my tester and just to double check because it was a older house they pigtailed the neutral and attached it to the ground and neutral terminal on the receptacle to pass inspection. My point is many things in an older house should be replaced or inspected more thoroughly some things may be not up to today's standards but were current at the time of installation. can you say its not up to today's standards ? sure you can. I had an inspector put in his report that zinsco breakers were dangerous and recommend replacement but this wasn't required. I ended up replacing the panel on his recommendation . The only thing you can do is give a report on what you find and your concerns and have these items checked out by a qualified electrician .

one other point as electricians we could use the work.
 
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augie47

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Tennessee
Occupation
State Electrical Inspector (Retired)
I would tend to agree with AV (and others).
Your concern is indeed valid, but at this point I think you can only note it on your report.
If POCO has indeed turned off the power, my guess would be you may be reading a voltage coming back thru the neutral ..possibly from another house on the transformer ..due to a poor POCO connection but that is purely a guess. Voltage that will "alert" a sniffer may no be substantial enough to be a danger, but it is abnormal and should be noted.
 
I would suggest that the electrician brought in might not fit the class of "qualified electricians".

As for the tracer-
if the house neutral was not connected at all to the a ground electrode (or the the electrode didn't actually meet the earth) but was bonded to the EGC "system", and there was something funny with the incoming neutral from the PoCo, then I could see things lighting up as described. Also if the house is near a high power radio transmitter, such as a large AM station.

That's a lots of if's though.
 

72gs455

Member
Location
Minnesota
any overhead transmission lines in the area?

any overhead transmission lines in the area?

I was working in a home that was moved from 1 location to another. Out of habit I grabbed my lil Fluke pocketglow stick and set it next to a wire which then showed hot. Now I new there was no power there as the house was just being settled on to its new foundation and I had not started installing the new service. It still had me wondering until I looked again outside. The house was going to be setting near some overhead transmission lines. No it was not directly under them, it was probably 50 feet outside the area. But they are some 325k trans lines. they were causeing the magnetic flux to show on the general lighting circuits with the glow worm, showed nothing with my DMM or wiggy
 

George Stolz

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Windsor, CO NEC: 2017
Occupation
Service Manager
badbrad said:
I am well aware of the limitations regarding the use of a sniffer for diagnostic evaluations. I use my sniffer to keep from being electrocuted while in attics or crawl spaces. It is an important tool for home inspectors for personal safety; having said that it can also be used in limited functions to determine if there is power at a location. It tells me if it is on or off, no more, no less.

I have transmission lines about 225' from my back yard. I can stand in the back yard with any brand of tick tracer and it will detect the voltage off the lines.

On the flip side, with any moisture on an energized piece of romex, it will give you a false negative reading - it will not detect through moist insulation. The water establishes a low-resistance connection between the bare EGC and the wet paper surrounding the conductors. A tick tracer will not read through a bonded object. It will not read through properly bonded MC cable sheathing.

At the end of the day, all you can do is put a real meter on the problem and see what the voltage is and note it.

badbrad said:
The realtor is content to just ignore the problem and take his commission. The electrician that was sent out to the job did not have all the information to understand my concerns. The word I was looking for last night was "Stray Voltage."

We are all aware of the problems with dairy cows in this regard, but there is less information regarding stray voltage in homes. I was hoping that some of the big guns on this forum could point me to some information I could use to support my position.
That's probably because stray voltage is not a correct term to apply to an event inside a conventional home. In the case of dairy cows, they are standing on "remote earth" from the grounding electrode system of the barn or "very remote earth" from the substation supplying the premises.

The difference in voltage between the neutral of the premises wiring system and the dirt beneath the cows feet is conventional stray voltage. If you were to test the problem water tank with a tick tracer you would likely not see a voltage.

To try to drag this concept into the home, you would have to have a 50v difference between your knees and the metal you are detecting voltage on. There is very little possibility that this is from conventional stray voltage.

My bet is that the grounding electrode system in the house is very poor, allowing a static charge to build up on the exposed metallic non-current-carrying portions of the building's electrical system. I think it less likely that the charge is being induced by nearby transmission lines.

badbrad said:
So now I can't help myself. Every time I go to an older home I check the lights with a sniffer to see if the metal components are energized, not the bulb sockets.
If the old branch circuits do not include an equipment grounding conductor (EGC) and the fixture is on, I would expect my tick tracer to light up when touching around the metal components of the fixture. Without the EGC, it will induce onto the fixture. That's normal. Unsettling, but normal.

badbrad said:
I took the dead front cover off the main panel and checked the main breaker for power. The sniffer showed power. So now I am wondering if the meter is on.
Which is why you should invest in one of these:
eb4632d6-7c26-4320-868c-9963d4342b90_400.jpg


No induced voltage will trick it, it will tell you immediately and without a doubt if there is voltage present. No questions, no wondering.

badbrad said:
The neutrals and the grounding conductors are not connected to the panel.
If there is NO connection between the grounds and the neutrals in the service disconnect, that would explain a lot of tick tracer questions. If the entire equipment grounding system throughout the house is floating, then there you go. That is a serious safety hazard.
 
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badbrad

Member
But What About??

But What About??

Thank you for your kind responses. I have some questions and comments that may be appropriate.
If a home is missing the ground rod and the neutrals and grounding conductors were floating inside the service disconnect, under conditions would there be an eminent safety hazard? (Keep in mind this home has at least a partial knob and tube system)
What are the repercussions of a broken neutral in the utility company?s service?
What happens if there is a power surge or a lightening strike on the service supply lines?
Would this affect a GFCI?
Is it acceptable to have a residual voltage anywhere inside a home? (Pretend you are being asked by an attorney in front of a jury)
This is great fun, thanks for the help.
In regards to the limitations of the tic tracer, sniffer; it is interesting to see the different points of view from the different trades. As electricians you see trees instead of forests. Granted a tic tracer may react to electromagnetic waves from high power sources, and they may be shielded from 110 volts by wet insulation, but under what circumstances could a bare piece of energized metal that is subject to human contact fail to show on a tic tracer? This is an important question because many thousands of people rely on this device for safety. If they are not safe, or only safe when used under certain conditions then I would like to know to spread the word. Some on the posts seem to discount their worth. I have used one for many years but I have learned not to trust mechanical stuff any more than possible. If in doubt after using everything I still touch the suspect area with the back of my left hand. As I get older shocks are not as fun as they were when I was younger.

Here is a copy of the letter I sent to PG&E after calling emergency services

Re: Potential Stray Voltage at
PG&E Conformation Number Per Emergency services
Dear Sir,
I recently performed a home inspection on the home at the above address. There was some confusion regarding whether the power was on or off at the time of the inspection. When I arrived on the morning of 3/11/10 the main breaker was in the off position. The realtor assistant opened the home and I turned the main breaker on. The lights in the home would not respond, so the assumption was that the power was off. The assistant was adamant that the power should be on so I used my sniffer to check some of the light fixtures to confirm the power was off.

To my surprise the sniffer indicated there was power on all the ceiling lights as well as some of the convenience outlets. Upon removing the dead front cover on the electric panel there was power in the main panel but I could not confirm if it was coming from the meter or somewhere else. I could not find a ground rod for the panel and the neutral circuits and the grounding circuits were not bonded to the panel housing. There was however a bond on the galvanized water lines. The home has multiple additions that may or may not have been permitted. Lastly, the home was retrofitted with aluminum siding that extends down into the soil.

When the main breaker is off, and especially when the meter is off, there should be no power inside the home. My sniffer however indicated a power source with the utilities in the off position. I am concerned that there may be a stray voltage problem on this house and that it may extend into, or be a part of the neighborhood.

The realtor contacted an electrician to go to the property but the power had been turned on by the time he arrived. He did not have the opportunity to evaluate the property in the same condition as did I. He could not identify any problems. In addition, the Realtor contacted PG&E in this regard and was told that I must have defective equipment.

At this point I have done everything I know how to do. There is something wrong with the wiring at this home and I suspect it is associated with the utility company?s wiring. It may be minor or it could be significant, and may even be an electrocution condition. Maybe someone is stealing power? I do not have the resources to make that determination. As a home inspector it is my responsibility to identify material defects and refer it to a qualified specialist for further evaluation and/or repair. I also have a professional standard of care to protect my client from potential harm.

Please do not trivialize my findings. I am a very experienced inspector and I am concerned that this may be an important clue to a latent safety hazard.

Please feel free to contact me at any time.
 
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