Lead-Safe seminars

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revolt

Member
Is the landlord course for $50 the same as the course for contractors? I'm paying $125 for the course plus $300 to the EPA to register my company. The certification is good for 5 years then you need a refresher course as I understand it. NJs official position can be found in the spring 2010 Construction Code Communicator. http://www.state.nj.us/dca/codes/ccc_art/articles/ccc_spring2010.pdf
Even if it is not enforced locally you are still liable to the customer.If you get sued by a customer your insurance company may hang you out to dry because you are supposed to be compliant in the law.
 

goldstar

Senior Member
Location
New Jersey
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
Is the landlord course for $50 the same as the course for contractors?
From what I understand, yes.
I'm paying $125 for the course plus $300 to the EPA to register my company. The certification is good for 5 years then you need a refresher course as I understand it. NJs official position can be found in the spring 2010 Construction Code Communicator. http://www.state.nj.us/dca/codes/ccc_art/articles/ccc_spring2010.pdf
Like I said earlier, this is a cash cow for the Fed.
Even if it is not enforced locally you are still liable to the customer.If you get sued by a customer your insurance company may hang you out to dry because you are supposed to be compliant in the law.
This is part of the mystique being propagated. Everyone starts assuming that contractors are going to start getting sued over unsafe lead paint practices. When the State of NJ tells me that they're going to enforce this EPA rule then I'll go out and get certified. That's also when prices for hi-hat installations start to through the roof - so far that you probably won't get the job anyway - and then you won't have to worry about being lead-safe.

If you can find and view this episode of Ask This Old House you'll see what has to be done for a lead-safe installation - Season 8, Episode 23, aired 03/20/2010. Once you see this then we can all talk about who's going to do this and how many more jobs we're not going to get because of the increased cost.
 

revolt

Member
Goldstar I agree 100% with it being a cash cow for the feds and driving up costs. They are pencil pushers in cubicles that need to justify their jobs.What's next, mercury in t stats, fiberglass insulation,glue in plywood etc. ? We will be dressed like astronauts with mobile test labs trailered behind the truck. In NJ when you go into business they should give you a leaflet that says on page 1 "don't do anything" and on page 2 it says "if you did something you better get a lawyer".
 

jxofaltrds

Inspector Mike®
Location
Mike P. Columbus Ohio
Occupation
ESI, PI, RBO
Goldstar I agree 100% with it being a cash cow for the feds and driving up costs. They are pencil pushers in cubicles that need to justify their jobs.What's next, mercury in t stats, fiberglass insulation,glue in plywood etc. ? We will be dressed like astronauts with mobile test labs trailered behind the truck. In NJ when you go into business they should give you a leaflet that says on page 1 "don't do anything" and on page 2 it says "if you did something you better get a lawyer".

Have you ever been in a MOP suit (chemical warfare suit) working the the tail of an airplane? With hemostats?
 

GUNNING

Senior Member
$37,500 per day per incidence fine for not wearing a resperator?

$37,500 per day per incidence fine for not wearing a resperator?

http://www.gainesville.com/article/...18?Title=Renovation-rules-target-pre-78-homes

This was in the Gainesville Sun in Florida today. The part that caught my eye was the $37,500 per day fine and the,

"We don't know how they're going to enforce it," he said. "Whoever writes the fine gets the money."

Anybody know anything about this in Florida?
 

e57

Senior Member
Have you ever been in a MOP suit (chemical warfare suit) working the the tail of an airplane? With hemostats?
No - but I once ran/jogged 20 miles with a 50# pack and a rifle in one - I doubt I'm capable of that again.... :D

Anyway the more I look at this law - the more it sickens me... We have to 'print' a 20 page book for any home with a kid or potentially knocked up wife... Do we have to leave it with them? Can we send a PDF? One would think they could get rid of much of it, and make it a single page - if not some required wording in the contract?

6sq' of opening or 6sq' of cut lines? What is distrubance?

Are there actual laws or codes to follow - or just 'some training' for $300, then registration of the 'training' for $300... THOUSANDS IN PRINTING... Who wrote this law - Zerox? Hewlet Parkard?

And what are we supposed to do? [standing with client] "Hey - how old is that kid?" - "5 years old....." "That'll actually be another $2k in site protection and clean up... Well unless you wait until after his birthday..."
 

goldstar

Senior Member
Location
New Jersey
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
Anyway the more I look at this law - the more it sickens me...Are there actual laws or codes to follow - or just 'some training' for $300, then registration of the 'training' for $300... THOUSANDS IN PRINTING... Who wrote this law - Zerox? Hewlet Parkard?
Same people that wrote the 2K page health care bill.:grin:
And what are we supposed to do? [standing with client] "Hey - how old is that kid?" - "5 years old....." "That'll actually be another $2k in site protection and clean up... Well unless you wait until after his birthday..."
Now you're starting to get the picture.;)
 

GUNNING

Senior Member
After reading some of this it looks like it is only for abatement or painters or anyone disturbing more than 6 square feet of surface area. But it doesnt specificallly state electrical contractors must apply. Just Painters, HVAC, Plumbers and General Contractors working on anything built before 1978. Those leaded joints must not apply.
 
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goldstar

Senior Member
Location
New Jersey
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
After reading some of this it looks like it is only for abatement or painters or anyone disturbing more than 6 square feet of surface area. But it doesnt specificallly state electrical contractors must apply. Just Painters, HVAC, Plumbers and General Contractors working on anything built before 1978. Those leaded joints must not apply.
Apparently it's more than that. Here's the EPA site : http://www.epa.gov/lead/pubs/renovation.htm . On the bottom right side of the page click on the section that says "Lead Safe Certified Media Campaign" it clearly states that electricians are included in the trades affected. From what I've been told by some that have gone to these seminars, the 6 sq ft of disturbance rule is applied on a per room basis. But, then again I haven't found that anywhere on the EPA site. Just another one of those un-verified little tid-bits that may or may not cause you to be subject to a $37K/day fine.:mad:
 

Sharpie

Senior Member
Location
PA
From what I've been told by some that have gone to these seminars, the 6 sq ft of disturbance rule is applied on a per room basis. But, then again I haven't found that anywhere on the EPA site. Just another one of those un-verified little tid-bits that may or may not cause you to be subject to a $37K/day fine.:mad:

I saw this addressed in the FAQs. The EPA's FAQs say that it is per room. So if you're reaching your limit when you're fishing wires, just go to the other side of the wall and make a hole there!
 

Sharpie

Senior Member
Location
PA
6sq' of opening or 6sq' of cut lines? What is distrubance?

I think that this is a very relevant question. It seems that sanding 6 Sq' is a whole lot worse than cutting out a 6'x6' hole.

I should have asked that when I took the course. I think I know what they're answer would be, however I would have to disagree.

The other thing that really gets me, if you make a bubble around your work, including the carpet, and you thoroughly clean before you remove the plastic, they say that you still have to HEPA vac it with a "beater bar". This can't just be a shop vac with a HEPA filter. It has to be a HEPA vac with no leaks.
 

goldstar

Senior Member
Location
New Jersey
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
This is an excerpt from one of the EPA's flyers
the EPA is mindful of the small added costs that may result from complying with this important rule. To that end, the EPA is launching a consumer campaign designed to raise awareness of the dangers of lead paint poisoning, and encourage consumers to choose only contractors who are Lead-Safe Certified.
I wonder how much people will be willing to pay for that raised awareness.:confused:
 

Sharpie

Senior Member
Location
PA
This is from the FAQs on EPA's website:

"Question

How much will it cost contractors to comply with the Renovation, Repair, and Painting (RRP) Rule?


Answer

Information collected by EPA for the purposes of the rulemaking indicates that many contractors already follow some of the work practices required by the rule, such as using disposable plastic sheeting to cover floors and objects in the work area. These estimates do not include the costs of those practices.

EPA estimates that the costs of containment, cleaning, and cleaning verification will range from $8 to $167 per job, with the exception of those exterior jobs where vertical containment would be required. This includes:
? Costs of equipment (for example, plastic sheeting, tape, HEPA vacuums and tool shrouds ? the equipment varies by job).
? Costs of labor (for example, the time required to perform cleaning and cleaning verification).

In addition to work practice costs, your costs will include training fees and certification fees. The costs include:
? Training costs to individual renovators working in pre-1978 housing or child-occupied facilities who must take a course from an accredited training provider (cost is set by the training provider; estimated to be about $200 for a 5-year certification).
? Certification costs to firms to obtain certification from EPA ($300 fee to the U.S. Treasury for a 5-year certification. (This fee is required by law to cover program administration)."



Why do they put in a number like $8-167? If my customer looks at these FAQs and sees $500-$1000 on my estimates to cover the costs, they are going to have a cow.

How does the EPA come up with such numbers? I think that they should leave number alone and let us figure out our own costs:mad:
 

GUNNING

Senior Member
Humph!

Humph!

The cost quotient is so they can sell it to congress and the public. I guess they think we are going to have an abatement team standing by to put in that outlet or rewire that house. They sold it to congress. It sounds like a "Lets get even with the liberals campaign." Not a "Lets protect our population against paint that hasn't been manufactured in this country is decades."
Its my understanding on hazardous material that if you own it, or have an option to owning it, or have owned it, your liable. Where are the paint companies on all this? Where are the lead manufacturers on all this? Where are the plumbers and HVAC equipment manufacturers on all this? Whose brain child was this?
 

dmagyar

Senior Member
Location
Rocklin, Ca.
I'm adding a few more conditions on my state mandated 8 page contract

I'm adding a few more conditions on my state mandated 8 page contract

This is crazy!

I'm adding a few more conditions to my attachment "A" of my Home improvement contract; "If you're house is older than 1978 please notify me by registered letter three days prior to any request for proposals so I can add the necessary costs which I will include, but not to exceed $10,000.00 for compliance with another cost of doing business law." If the EPA says it will only cost $167.00 please request a proposal from them for the work.

Also please notify me by registered letter three days before calling me out to work on your house if you've ever had anyone unlicensed work on any of your electrical systems. Note: this includes your husband, the next door neighbor who once knew an electrician and any guidance you may have received from anyone working for at a big box home improvement store.

Also please declare to me If I visit your home for the purpose of any electrical repair work, if your house has ever had an electrical fire caused in whole or part by anyone unlicensed who you've had work on your home, so that I can pass on your job.
 

c2500

Senior Member
Location
South Carolina
Gunning,

Don't you want to protect all of those 6 and under kiddies from becoming brain damaged from all the lead dust that exists in pre 1978 buildings? I sat through 8 hours of lead inspector training today. I have two more 8 hour days to go, take a 100 question test, then pay EPA and take another test, then I am a Certified Lead Inspector. Then I need to drop $18,000 for the test machine.

Oh, and I will take RRP either Thursday or Saturday and then pay the EPA even more money.

On a serious note though, I would advise everyone here that does remodel work to go take the RRP class. Just because you don't disturb 6 sqft. does not mean you are immune from the standards...it can always come back and bite you as a "you should have known". It looks and sounds like you will be seeing lawyers on TV soon saying "Have you had a contractor at your house recently that did not provide you with lead warnings??? Call us, we can help get all your money back and put the scoundrel out of business"

Well, guess I need to go study now....at least a weeks worth of information crammed into, and tested on, in three days.

c2500
 
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Jerseydaze

Senior Member
I got a couple good questions 1 Is your wife planning to become pregnant before or during this project? 2 Can you please prove your house was built in 1979? 3 Is it OK for my attorney to review the proposed 8 recessed lights project?
 

mkgrady

Senior Member
Location
Massachusetts
Took the course yesterday. The onus is on the contractor to be compliant.

We can not tell if the wife will become pregnant but I can picture it now. Two years down the road the child that wasn't even conceived yet has lead in his blood. The plaintifs atttorney has you on the stand asking you why you ignored the law that requires you to work lead safe. You say there were no children in the house at the time the work was performed. The lawyer then asks you if you understood the wife could have become pregnant.

In another example, no children in the home. The owners move out and a family with small children moves in after your work is done. Picture yourself on the stand when the new owners children have lead in their blood.

The course I took preached treating every house built before 1978 to contain lead paint and for that house to have children under six. They claim the risk of not doing so is too high.

One of the other things I learned is that EPA has not offered help to anybody looking to understand the new law. The reason given is because they can only parrot what the law says. There are no interpretations being given. A couple of people here have indicated there are EPA FAQ's. I can't find any. If I do find them I'd be curious to see if they clarify any of the rules or if they are just parrotting what the rules state.

As an example of unanswered questions, "How can we cover the floor with plastic if the floor is going to be removed?" You have to cover the floors until the job is done. "In a total whole house gut job do we still have to put plastic on the floor?" Yes. "For what purpose?" We don't know but you must do it.

Putting down plastic or putting up plastic partitions wasn't the worst part of the requirements. It was more the constant cleanup, keeping the owner out of the work area, notifications, testing, record keeping, training employees, etc.
 

mkgrady

Senior Member
Location
Massachusetts
I got a couple good questions 1 Is your wife planning to become pregnant before or during this project? 2 Can you please prove your house was built in 1979? 3 Is it OK for my attorney to review the proposed 8 recessed lights project?

The burden will be on you to find out when the house was built.
 

Sharpie

Senior Member
Location
PA
Shouldn't we the people be able to band together and get this repealed? I would rather educate the customer and take precautionary measures on my own, for the sake of caring rather than be legislated.

How far do you take it though? If that's the view I hold on this, then why not hold that view on the NEC?

I'm just thinking out loud.
 
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