Federal Pacific and UL listing.

Status
Not open for further replies.
I am in the Oklahoma City area. I have a customer who is a real estate agent. When he has a home inspector (not an actual authority having jurisdiction "electrical inspector") inspect a home for the sale, every time there is a federal pacific panel in the house they will put down on their list of "recommendations" that the panel is unsafe and needs to changed out. I have worked for several real estate companies in the past and usually the recommendation was to "have a licensed electrician inspect panel" Though I have always agreed with the fact that FPE panels are unsafe and should be changed out, this pattern has just recently become a trend here. So out of curiosity I started asking around to find out why this new trend has started. Two long time electrical contractors told me that FPE breakers had lost their UL listing. I assumed this was because of their tendency to turn a copper wire into a welding rod. I was asked if I could simply change out the breakers to the aftermarket kind. I told them it would be much safer and the cost would be the same amount of money, or cheaper to just change it out to a new service. BUT this got me to thinking, COULD this work? Here you can only buy used FPE breakers or new aftermarket ones made by Unique Breaker Inc. So I asked a local supply house manager, also usually very knowledgeable about such things, he said he had never heard such a thing, and he had an Oklahoma City inspector on the other line. When he got back on the line after talking to said inspector he said the inspector had never heard of this either, and that my source must have been mistaken. VERY long winded I know, just wanted to get all of the background put in here. I have since been trying to research this via the internet, and have yet to find anything "official" to prove or disprove this. What I have read so far that FPE "lost their UL listing", "Never HAD a UL listing", and that they "falsified UL listing". Can anyone clear this difference of opinion up for me, and possibly guide to something "official" to show both sides of this? (As well as for my own clarity)

Thanks Jason
 

Jljohnson

Senior Member
Location
Colorado
I was asked if I could simply change out the breakers to the aftermarket kind. I told them it would be much safer and the cost would be the same amount of money, or cheaper to just change it out to a new service. BUT this got me to thinking, COULD this work? Here you can only buy used FPE breakers or new aftermarket ones made by Unique Breaker Inc.
Thanks Jason

Economically Speaking, why would you want to do this in lieu of a panel change-out? A Squared D or whatever brand of load center you like is relatively inexpensive and the new breakers are dirt cheap compared to an aftermarket FPE breaker. Add to this the "what if the customer wants to add a new circuit and needs an AFCI breaker" scenario and leaving the FPE panel in place makes no sense to me. I get these calls all of the time from realtors and home inspectors. A few have even asked me to "certify" that the FPE panel is OK and does not need to be replaced. I have never nor will I ever write any type of letter to that effect. Bottom line for me is... for the cost of a 24 circuit load center full of retro-fit breakers, I can typically change out the entire panel and bring the service up to date, or at least come close to that.
 

LarryFine

Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
Location
Henrico County, VA
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
A few have even asked me to "certify" that the FPE panel is OK and does not need to be replaced. I have never nor will I ever write any type of letter to that effect.
It would be hard to do that for any existing installation.
 

Jraef

Moderator, OTD
Staff member
Location
San Francisco Bay Area, CA, USA
Occupation
Electrical Engineer
What that website doesn't say is that ALL breaker manufacturers end up with problems throughout a product life cycle. FPE at one time had tested listed products that were safe, otherwise they never would have attained UL listing in the first place. But what really happened is that as time went on, component and material sources changed (as they all do) and what FPE did was falsify their records to UL that would have triggered a re-test. I have been in CB manufacturing plants and many of the component parts, for example copper current path components, come from other contract manufacturers. These suppliers in fact often are single sources for several competitive manufacturers, as evidenced by the shortages caused when copper prices skyrocketed last year. But they couldn't do anything about it because if the CB manufacturer changes ANYTHING in that CB, a copper part, a rivet, a molded case part etc., UL technically has to to be notified of any change and it may trigger a re-test of the entire product line. At roughly $20k per line item, that ends up being very expensive.

FPE's crime was that they tried to circumvent that process and not tell UL they had changed anything, when in fact they had. By the end of the '70s when the investigations started, essentially the breakers they were making in the '50s when they attained the UL listing were eventually composed of many different (and as it turned out, critical) components and materials, some of which were failing. So the anecdotes that came in where people said "I've never had a problem" were likely entirely true. Unfortunately, nobody knows exactly when the FPE QC program went south so being there is no way to tell, the only safe bet is to replace. I did.

There is no way any electrician can "certify" an FPE panel. Even if it was installed in the '50s, you have no way to tell if some of the breakers were installed later.
 

mxslick

Senior Member
Location
SE Idaho
Cold Fusion, there was a thread a while back on a warning label FPE issued due to problems with their larger molded-case breakers.

Link to the thread.

FPE in general has had a bad history of unsafe products due to poor design or bad quality control.

I do not ever trust ANY FPE gear.
 

Cold Fusion

Senior Member
Location
way north
Cold Fusion, there was a thread a while back on a warning label FPE issued due to problems with their larger molded-case breakers.

Link to the thread.

FPE in general has had a bad history of unsafe products due to poor design or bad quality control.

I do not ever trust ANY FPE gear.
Thank you and I appreciate your reasoning.

I read the link and there were three of four knowledgable posts and a lot of maybes, and I thinks .

My questions still stand.

cf
 

mxslick

Senior Member
Location
SE Idaho
You're welcome, and you're right about that thread. :grin:

To offer my specific answers to your questions:

1: Not necessarily, but again their track record doesn't inspire confidence. A lot of the stab-loc issues are due to the bus designs as well as the breakers. As for the bigger breakers, they seemed to have been overall more reliable. I still don't trust them (molded case and mains as in Chris Kennedy's posts in that thread) and run into them a lot in older cinemas.

2: For residential use, I believe the stab-loc was the only product line. IIRC the name "stab-loc" wasn't on every panel line they made though. They did make molded-case and rackable breakers for commercial/industrial use. Member zog has had lots of hands-on with the bigger ones.

3: Again for residential I don't think they did. I also don't think they ever built products for other brands' (interchangeable) lines.

I am of the school that it is best to replace FPE stab-loc panels whenever they are encountered. There are better, safer and less expensive breakers and panels available now.
 

James13

Member
Not sure, but i would avoid those panels like a plague and just replace...All of those panels are typically not worth re-using and you can work in them because they are so small
 

Minuteman

Senior Member
Jason, I've heard the "No UL" rumor myself. All I know is that FPE's are notorious for failure. Whenever, I'm in that situation, I just strongly agree with the Home Inspector and give a bid to replace the panel.
 
augie47:
Thanks for the input I actually ran across this site while googling federal pacific prior to my post here. It does have alot of useful information.

Economically Speaking, why would you want to do this in lieu of a panel change-out? A Squared D or whatever brand of load center you like is relatively inexpensive and the new breakers are dirt cheap compared to an aftermarket FPE breaker. Add to this the "what if the customer wants to add a new circuit and needs an AFCI breaker" scenario and leaving the FPE panel in place makes no sense to me. I get these calls all of the time from realtors and home inspectors. A few have even asked me to "certify" that the FPE panel is OK and does not need to be replaced. I have never nor will I ever write any type of letter to that effect. Bottom line for me is... for the cost of a 24 circuit load center full of retro-fit breakers, I can typically change out the entire panel and bring the service up to date, or at least come close to that.

I apologize I thought I had specified this point by saying:
"I told them it would be much safer and the cost would be the same amount of money, or cheaper to just change it out to a new service."
I never implied that I would just swap breakers in lieu of a service change out. I ALWAYS recommend that a FPE panel needs to be changed out to a new panel. I usually use cutler hammer since that is the line most supply houses in this area carry. I was simply asked a question that made me curious, and got conflicting opinions from 4 different sources all of which I considered to be knowledgeable: one electrical contractor since the early 70's, one electrical contrator since the late 80's, both of whom were of the opinion FPE had "lost" their UL listing. One longtime manager of a local supply house who has ALWAYS been knowledgeable about things similar to this, and an Oklahoma City electrical inspector whom you would THINK would be up to speed on these things, Both of the latter said they have never heard anything of the like about FPE, and are of the opinion the UL story was false.
Was only looking for something somewhat official to prove one side or the other.


Jraef:
VERY informative, sounds like you have really done your homework and everything I have read online so far has backed you up 100%

I appreciate all of the positive input. If anyone knows of anything somewhat official, I would like to take that info back to the supply house manager, and inspector.
 
After re-reading the entire post again, I can see how one might get that I was "considering" the breaker change out instead of a service change-out. Update on said upcoming job: I gave an estimate of $1500.00 to change out the service with an outdoor panel. When asked again about the new Universal Breaker Inc. breakers; I got a material estimate from the supply house of $1250.00. I said add a max of 2 hours labor on top of that material cost. I then told them I would match THIS price and put in a brand new, up-to-code service with an outdoor panel. I explained to the agent that a service change out was by far the best option and since existing panel is in a bedroom closet, I could either put in an outdoor panel, which would be on the back of the house, which is fenced in by a 7' wooden stockade fence. Or the only other real option would be to put in a fused switch at the meter base and feed a panel to be installed in the garage and fed through the attic in conduit (which is completely on the other end of the house, literally, couldn't be ANY farther away). Buyer said she absolutely DID NOT want the panel on the outside of the house. I said the only other option was was the garage panel option. When I gave them the cost difference, they fainted...... not really, but almost. STILL would not allow the outdoor panel. I told the agent when they figured out what they wanted to do to call me. He did... He said they just wanted the old breakers changed out to the new Universal Breaker Inc. cb's. I told them they really weren't gaining a safer service or anything else in my opinion, and were throwing money out the window. I totally agree with someone on here who has a quote to the effect of, "stupid should be painful"
 

walkerj

Senior Member
Location
Baton Rouge
We don't do much residential, but we will not do anything with a FPE panel but throw it in the back of the truck after we install a new panel.

Your customer sounds silly.
Brand new price=Hack price
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
It would be hard to do that for any existing installation.

You could tell them that to have it certified a NRTL rep would need to do it and they would most likely charge no less than $20,000.00. Or the other option would be to install new equipment that is listed and give them a bargain price of $19,999.00:)
 

Minuteman

Senior Member
If they opt for the breaker swap out after explaining the situation to them, then it's not on you. However, if the panel is located in a bedroom closet (as most of the old FPE's are in OKC) and the service ever need upgrade or even a new circuit, then you are right back to the outside/relocate debate. Sooner or later that panel will need replacement. Which inspector are you dealing with? The Chief?


Edit:

BTW, FPE's failures are also due to the Stabloc bus connection. New breakers won't solve that problem.
 
Last edited:

mxslick

Senior Member
Location
SE Idaho
<snip> I totally agree with someone on here who has a quote to the effect of, "stupid should be painful"

LOL That would be me. :)

I went thru the exact same scenario recently with a relative who bought a property to use as a rental...we spent as much money on buying breakers for the new circuits and replacing a few bad ones. (Pushmatics, had a few that wouldn't reset, plus added circuits and a DP 50 for the new A/C unit.)

Told him I could do a panel swap for less than what we paid for the breakers alone. :roll:
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
LOL That would be me. :)

I went thru the exact same scenario recently with a relative who bought a property to use as a rental...we spent as much money on buying breakers for the new circuits and replacing a few bad ones. (Pushmatics, had a few that wouldn't reset, plus added circuits and a DP 50 for the new A/C unit.)

Told him I could do a panel swap for less than what we paid for the breakers alone. :roll:

about 15 years ago had someone building new house after old one burned down. Asked if we could use panel from old house (FPE). Luckily we needed 200 amp panel and his old one was only 100 amp but told him he could buy the new 200 amp panel and breakers for price of just adding a few breakers to the old one.
 

mxslick

Senior Member
Location
SE Idaho
about 15 years ago had someone building new house after old one burned down. Asked if we could use panel from old house (FPE). Luckily we needed 200 amp panel and his old one was only 100 amp but told him he could buy the new 200 amp panel and breakers for price of just adding a few breakers to the old one.


Hmmmm, old house burned down and it had an FPE panel...wonder what connection there is to that...:grin:

Even if the fire wasn't electrical in origin, I'd be willing to bet that the FPE breakers never tripped when the wiring got damaged by the fire.
 

Mgraw

Senior Member
Location
Opelousas, Louisiana
Occupation
Electrician
What I have read so far that FPE "lost their UL listing", "Never HAD a UL listing", and that they "falsified UL listing". Can anyone clear this difference of opinion up for me, and possibly guide to something "official" to show both sides of this? (As well as for my own clarity)

Thanks Jason

I went to Schneider Electric - Federal Pioneer Canada's website and they show their Stab-lok breakers are both UL-Canada and UL-USA listed. What I found strange about it is the Stab-lok breakers are shown to be Square-d breakers on the certification.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top