ky says I need a grd. rod only on my house

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atkrider

Member
I started looking at the grounding system to my new house when a 42" piece of ground rod was rototilled up in my yard. When I opened up the panel to see if the grounding electrode wires were installed all I found was a #6 wire going to a ground rod. No ufer, no water bond. I called the city(Shelbyville, Ky.) to have the inspector stop by. He did, and he informed me that since the grounding conductors were tied to the grounded conductors it would be ok and the the circuit breakers would trip if something came in contact with any metal in the system. I have never heard anything like this. I told him let's assume the ground rod has 5 ohms of resistance, so if an ungrounded conductor came in contact with a metal surface in the system, 24 amps would flow to earth and how would a 20, 30, 40,50, or 60 amp breaker trip. Heck it could be hours before a 15 amp breaker tripped the way I understand it. But again he went back to the grounded conductor and the gound conductor were tied in the panel. He even called a George Mann in Frankfort Ky. Who I assumed was his boss and let me talk to him and the man basically told me I didn't know what I was talking about. Could some please clarify for me who's right, and help me in getting me house properly grounded.
 

Buck Parrish

Senior Member
Location
NC & IN
You should have had at least an 8ft grd rod. Now most of us use two.
If you found a 42" one it sounds like one may have been cut off.
But, other then that I agree with Mr. Mann.:grin:;)
 

atkrider

Member
You should have had at least an 8ft grd rod. Now most of us use two.
If you found a 42" one it sounds like one may have been cut off.
But, other then that I agree with Mr. Mann.:grin:;)

I've been out of the trade for about 9 years now, but what I remember was, that new buildings shall have a ufer, water, building steel, ground rod, and ground ring bonded together. Has this changed?
 

Volta

Senior Member
Location
Columbus, Ohio
Welcome to the forum!

The purpose of the connection to earth is not to facilitate the OverCurrent Protective device (OCP) to operate. It is simply to provide a low-impedance path for current to ground from lightning or utility mishaps and to stabilize the voltage to ground in general.

It is not to assist in a breaker tripping (at these low 240 volt levels).

The # 6 copper wire is sufficient for the replacement rod you should have installed, better to have two, copper clad is worth the money.

The size to connect to any metal underground water pipe is dependent upon the size of the service entrance conductors.
 

shepelec

Senior Member
Location
Palmer, MA
The issue here is not the circuit grounds which will trip out the breaker.

The service ground does not sound like it is up to par. If this is a new home under the 08 book, you should expect to see 2 eight foot rods, unless one rod shows 25 ohms or less resistance. If you have town water with a copper water main extending atleast 10 feet into the ground that must be used as an electrode. If you have metal water piping and private water the piping must be bonded.
 

George Stolz

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Windsor, CO NEC: 2017
Occupation
Service Manager
I told him let's assume the ground rod has 5 ohms of resistance, so if an ungrounded conductor came in contact with a metal surface in the system, 24 amps would flow to earth and how would a 20, 30, 40,50, or 60 amp breaker trip. Heck it could be hours before a 15 amp breaker tripped the way I understand it.
Which is precisely why we do not use grounding electrodes as a return path for fault current, but rather use the service neutral.

Read this.

I've been out of the trade for about 9 years now, but what I remember was, that new buildings shall have a ufer, water, building steel, ground rod, and ground ring bonded together. Has this changed?
No, but prior to 2005 the Ufer was considered inaccessible if the electrician arrived after the foundation was poured. Since your house was probably wired prior to 2005, then you do not have to make use of the Ufer in your home if it's inaccessible without disturbing concrete.

It could be that you do not have 10' of metallic water piping in the earth to serve as a grounding electrode.

You are only required to use those electrodes that are present, and if no electrodes are present then a ground rod or two would meet code.
 

infinity

Moderator
Staff member
Location
New Jersey
Occupation
Journeyman Electrician
I've been out of the trade for about 9 years now, but what I remember was, that new buildings shall have a ufer, water, building steel, ground rod, and ground ring bonded together. Has this changed?

From your list you're only required to use what is present. The metallic water pipe, if it qualifies as an electrode must be used and must be supplemented by one additional electrode. If you had a CEE and the water pipe that would be all that's required. You would not need to install other made electrode.
 

electricmanscott

Senior Member
Location
Boston, MA
Your inspector obviously doesn't know what he is talking about on several fronts.

First, you could have zero grounding electrodes and it would have no bearing on the operation of your circuit breakers.

Second, your 42" ground rod does not meet code. You have to have 8' in contact with the earth and in most cases you should have two.

Third, if you have no water pipe bond there is another violation.

Fourth, I'll assume no uffer required at this point.

Fifth, this should never have passed inspection in the first place but based on the inspectors current statements it is not surprising that it did.
 

mcclary's electrical

Senior Member
Location
VA
Your inspector obviously doesn't know what he is talking about on several fronts.

First, you could have zero grounding electrodes and it would have no bearing on the operation of your circuit breakers.

Second, your 42" ground rod does not meet code. You have to have 8' in contact with the earth and in most cases you should have two.

Third, if you have no water pipe bond there is another violation.

Fourth, I'll assume no uffer required at this point.

Fifth, this should never have passed inspection in the first place but based on the inspectors current statements it is not surprising that it did.

I disagree,,,there is not ONE single thing the op mentioned that should have failed inspection. Yes,,,the rod is short and has been cut,,,,but have you ever seen an inspector pull up both rods to verify length?? Second,,,the water pipe might be plastic,, he didn't say. Third,,there may not be steel in his foundation or slab,,,so,,,,,re -read his post. He didn't mention anything that should have failed inspection. You assumed alot
 

Dennis Alwon

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Chapel Hill, NC
Occupation
Retired Electrical Contractor
I've been out of the trade for about 9 years now, but what I remember was, that new buildings shall have a ufer, water, building steel, ground rod, and ground ring bonded together. Has this changed?
That has never been the code. A ground ring may be added but I have never seen one but have heard of them specified on commercial jobs. Never heard of one on a residence.

The ground rod is good for well...... nothing pretty much. It may help with lightning strikes but not very much. If you get 5 ohms on a rod, esp. one that has been cut in half then you have some soil. With 2 rods, around here, we get about 90 ohms.

A ufer would be nice as you get much better protection but many areas don't enforce it or look at it from a different standpoint. In NC they say the EC is not there when the CEE is present thus it isn't present when they arrive so it is not necessary. I wish this would change.

If your water pipes are metal then yes they should be bonded. If there is metal coming in from the street then there should be a GEC going to within 5' of where the piping enters the building.

I will assume you have no building steel in contact with the earth. :)
 

electricmanscott

Senior Member
Location
Boston, MA
I disagree,,,there is not ONE single thing the op mentioned that should have failed inspection. Yes,,,the rod is short and has been cut,,,,but have you ever seen an inspector pull up both rods to verify length?? Second,,,the water pipe might be plastic,, he didn't say. Third,,there may not be steel in his foundation or slab,,,so,,,,,re -read his post. He didn't mention anything that should have failed inspection. You assumed alot

You can disagree 'till you cry, it isn't going to change anything.

The rod is short and has been cut. FAIL

Only one rod. 99.9% FAIL

He mentions bonding the water line, so one would assume metal in which case it must be bonded. FAIL

Finally I said that I would assume no uffer needed so maybe you should re read my post as it is YOU assume too much. :roll:
 

atkrider

Member
Thank you and everybody else for their time. I enjoyed the power point presentation. The more I sit and think(I've been disabled from the trade for ten years) all of this makes sense, but in the 25 years I worked in the commercial electrical industry, everthing was to be bonded and brought back to the switch gear. Thanks again everyone. Be safe out there!!!!

rider
 

atkrider

Member
Grounding in Kentucky

Grounding in Kentucky

Thank you and everybody else for their time. I enjoyed the power point presentation. The more I sit and think(I've been disabled from the trade for ten years) all of this makes sense, but in the 25 years I worked in the commercial electrical industry, everthing was to be bonded and brought back to the switch gear. Thanks again everyone. Be safe out there!!!!

rider
 
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