California - Electric Resistance Heating

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ike5547

Senior Member
Location
Chico, CA
Occupation
Electrician
I've been asked to bid a single family residential job that includes an outdoor hot tub with electric heating and (2) electric outdoor patio heaters. The outdoor patio heaters have a combined rating of about 10kW.

Are outdoor electrical resistance heating installations like this restricted -- or covered by title 24 in any way -- in California?
 

ike5547

Senior Member
Location
Chico, CA
Occupation
Electrician
[FONT=Arial-Black, sans-serif]I'm probably okay on the spa heating, but a little unsure on the patio heaters.
[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial-Black, sans-serif]
[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial-Black, sans-serif]5.2.9 Pool and Spa Equipment[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial-BoldItalicMT, sans-serif]Pool and Spa Overview[/FONT]


[FONT=ArialMT, sans-serif]"The requirements include minimum heating efficiency according to Appliance Efficiency Regulations . . . and no electric resistance heating (see exceptions below)."[/FONT]


[FONT=ArialMT, sans-serif]"There are two exceptions for electric heaters, which may be installed for:[/FONT]


[FONT=ArialMT, sans-serif]1. Listed package units with fully insulated enclosures (e.g., hot[/FONT]
[FONT=ArialMT, sans-serif]tubs), and with tight-fitting covers, insulated to at least R-6.[/FONT]


[FONT=ArialMT, sans-serif]2. Pools or spas getting 60 percent or more of their annual[/FONT]
[FONT=ArialMT, sans-serif]heating from site solar energy or recovered energy."[/FONT]
 

acrwc10

Master Code Professional
Location
CA
Occupation
Building inspector
I've been asked to bid a single family residential job that includes an outdoor hot tub with electric heating and (2) electric outdoor patio heaters. The outdoor patio heaters have a combined rating of about 10kW.

Are outdoor electrical resistance heating installations like this restricted -- or covered by title 24 in any way -- in California?

Are these the "Infratech" heaters? If so you should not have a problem. Personally I put the on timer controlled contactors, so they can't be left on by accident.

The question "is the installation covered by title 24 in any way" is a loaded question. Title 24 is the California building code, all of it, plumbing, electrical, building, mechanical, etc. So yes it is covered by "title 24"
 

ike5547

Senior Member
Location
Chico, CA
Occupation
Electrician
Are these the "Infratech" heaters? If so you should not have a problem. Personally I put the on timer controlled contactors, so they can't be left on by accident.

The question "is the installation covered by title 24 in any way" is a loaded question. Title 24 is the California building code, all of it, plumbing, electrical, building, mechanical, etc. So yes it is covered by "title 24"

Yes, they're infrared heaters.

Thanks for your reply. I guess my question is in reference to part 6. Outdoor heating doesn't seem to be addressed at all.
 

acrwc10

Master Code Professional
Location
CA
Occupation
Building inspector
I have installed a dozen or so of these heaters and not had an issue. I don't think the energy conservation part of the code is applied because they are not the main source of heating for the house/structure. They are just a comfort heater used infrequently.
 

ike5547

Senior Member
Location
Chico, CA
Occupation
Electrician
On a related note having nothing to do with the specific topic 'outdoor heating': Assuming that the 'main heating' is Title 24, Part VI compliant: is it permissible to install electric resistance heating in say a bathroom? (for example, a kick space heater or a wall insert?)

I've received conflicting opinions.
 
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ike5547

Senior Member
Location
Chico, CA
Occupation
Electrician
I've been doing a little investigating and see that the answer to post 6 is a very qualified no. The exceptions that permit these installations appear extremely complicated and convoluted.

Almost like doing taxes and an equally rewarding experience.
 
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e57

Senior Member
The question "is the installation covered by title 24 in any way" is a loaded question. Title 24 is the California building code, all of it, plumbing, electrical, building, mechanical, etc. So yes it is covered by "title 24"
Title 24 part 6 is the energy code.... and yes they are, and aren't covered by it. As far as interior heating they need to fit a standard that they can not do... And thus illegal... Not so sure about outdoors... In the last cycle they seemed to be not mentioned - the damned eco-nazi manufacturer led students at UC Davis who write this code did not seem to have caught on to it - but they might have this cycle?????

Lets see.....

It don't appear so...

Under the heading of
"SECTION 144 ? PRESCRIPTIVE REQUIREMENTS FOR SPACE CONDITIONING SYSTEMS"

Which appears to also include outdoor spaces....
(g)​
Electric Resistance Heating. Electric resistance heating systems shall not be used for space heating.


EXCEPTION 1 to Section 144(g):​
Where an electric-resistance heating system supplements a heating system in
which at least 60 percent of the annual energy requirement is supplied by site-solar or recovered energy.


EXCEPTION 2 to Section 144(g):​
Where an electric-resistance heating system supplements a heat pump heating
system, and the heating capacity of the heat pump is more than 75 percent of the design heating load calculated in
accordance with Section 144(a) at the design outdoor temperature specified in Section 144(b)4.


EXCEPTION 3 to Section 144(g):​
Where the total capacity of all electric-resistance heating systems serving the
entire building is less than 10 percent of the total design output capacity of all heating equipment serving the entire
building.


EXCEPTION 4 to Section 144(g)​
: Where the total capacity of all electric-resistance heating systems serving the
entire building, excluding those allowed under Exception 2, is no more than 3 kW.


EXCEPTION 5 to Section 144(g):​
Where an electric resistance heating system serves an entire building that is not a
high-rise residential or hotel/motel building; and has a conditioned floor area no greater than 5,000 square feet; and
has no mechanical cooling; and is in an area where natural gas is not currently available and an extension of a natural

gas system is impractical, as determined by the natural gas utility.

But hey, who are we to decipher what part 6 really means - it's written by people on a holiday from their senses... Let them enforce it - if your client wants it - give it to them.... ;)
 

ike5547

Senior Member
Location
Chico, CA
Occupation
Electrician
I'm a little thrown off by the performance vs. prescriptive terminology. That is, when, how and why either one method or approach should be employed over the other. Or does it even matter?

144(g), apparently, is a 'prescriptive' method/approach/requirement. If I can show up on a job site and automatically apply 144(g) when a client asks for (1) new bathroom heater, my job just got a little less vague.

It appears that EXCEPTION 4 to Section 144(g) is what you'd be looking at first. Exception 4 seems to imply that you can have up to 3kW of electric heat no matter what the circumstances.

Failing that, you'd try EXCEPTION 3: 10% of "total design output capacity." I'm not sure what they mean by that.

Of course, I might be totally misapplying the entire section.
 

acrwc10

Master Code Professional
Location
CA
Occupation
Building inspector
The key is in the first line "electric resistance heating systems shall not be used for space heating."
If you are going in to have a plan review of a new job, this would not be allowed as your heating system. There is a requirement to put in an efficient Gas heating system to heat the home, they are not going to care that you are adding an electric heater for "now and then" type of use, it is not replacing the heating system. The reason the code needs to spell it out the way they have is, there are a lot of people that would use cheap electric wall heaters in every room to cut cost on installation and try and say that is the heating system. Then it would cost a fortune in electricity to heat the house. Besides all that you are in Pacifica, the inspectors out there only care that you Not use #14 wire. :D
 

ike5547

Senior Member
Location
Chico, CA
Occupation
Electrician
Besides all that you are in Pacifica, the inspectors out there only care that you Not use #14 wire. :D


I've actually only ever done about 2 or 3 small jobs in Pacifica (none with a permit) but that's interesting. I only live here. It's a seven minute commute to the Sunset district from my driveway.
 

ike5547

Senior Member
Location
Chico, CA
Occupation
Electrician
I've just left a message with on SF DBI code question 'hotline,' for lack of a better term, and framed the question. We'll see what they have to say about it.
 

acrwc10

Master Code Professional
Location
CA
Occupation
Building inspector
When they call you back keep a copy of the recording. You can CYA if they come back and so "you can't do that.":grin:
 

ike5547

Senior Member
Location
Chico, CA
Occupation
Electrician
Called the electrical division. They never returned my call.

Grabbed a copy of one of my permits and noticed there is a stamp on the front. Here it is:

0602101254.jpg


Left a message with mechanical plan check. Got a return call. According to them, in order to install my little 1500 watt heater I have to submit forms MF-1R and CF-IR. They can be found here:

http://www.energy.ca.gov/2005public...5/chapters_4q/Appendix-A_Compliance_Forms.pdf
 

mikeames

Senior Member
Location
Germantown MD
Occupation
Teacher - Master Electrician - 2017 NEC
WOW I learned something, only a state like CA would have laws like that. Maybe they should focus their energy on larger issues.
 

ike5547

Senior Member
Location
Chico, CA
Occupation
Electrician
You should try reading the thing (CA Energy Code,) it's a complete train wreck. The guy who called me didn't seem able to understand it himself, let alone explain it to others. He said he gets the same question almost every day, so I figured he must be an expert at providing the information by now. Nope. Not even close.

So I wonder what actually happens when someone tries to fill in these forms to get their permit to install a heater. Baffling. Also, I guess you have to get a building permit and an electrical permit.

BTW, we were looking at section 144(g)? That's nonresidential and high-rise residential.
 
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