NEC - 2011 draft questions

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Ron Johnson

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Location
Columbia, TN
I am currently taking a class in Industrial Electricity. I have a copy of the draft of the 2011 NEC code and have found a couple items that do not seem to make sense. I am hoping that you can explain these items to me so I can let the teacher know; he says to wait till the final edition comes out and I don?t want to wait.

The first item is:

404.2(C) Switches Controlling Lighting Loads. Where switches control lighting loads supplied by a grounded general purpose branch circuit, a grounded circuit conductor shall be provided at the switch location. [ROP 9-95]

Exception: The grounded circuit conductor shall be permitted to be omitted from the switch enclosure where either of the conditions in (1) or (2) apply: [ROP 9-95]

(1) Conductors for switches controlling lighting loads enter the device box through a raceway. [ROP 9-95]

(2) Cable assemblies for switches controlling lighting enter the box through a framing cavity that is open at the top or bottom on the same floor level, or through a wall, floor, or ceiling that is unfinished on one side. [ROP 9-95]


This sounds like you now need to run a neutral wire into the box where the switch is though it doesn?t mention whether it needs to be included in the circuit itself ? perhaps to be able to run a tap for an outlet? The teacher thinks that perhaps they mean ?a grounding circuit conductor? ? which means that perhaps the want to use a grounding wire on the switch, though it doesn?t say to connect it, just that it should be available.

The second is:

210.52(A)(4) Receptacles installed for countertop surfaces as specified in 210.52(C) shall not be considered as the receptacles required by 210.52(A)). [ROP 2-228][/INDENT]

This sounds that the receptacles used for the counter space is not included in the outlets for the wall, being every 12 feet. So I would expect that means that after the countertop outlets go in, you then need to run outlets to be spaced every 12 feet. Obviously, this is not what they want to say, but it does sound like they are saying it.

Am I wrong on these interpretations? Are these mere oversights or typos that got through the first draft?
 

jbelectric777

Senior Member
Location
NJ/PA
Hi Ron, The grounded (neutral) conductor rule is to prevent people from tapping the equipment ground for an outlet. Many DIYer's are learning enough to be dangerous, so the way it sounds a switch loop will have to have a 3 wire with the neutral tied to neutral even if it's not being used. The second one is where an outlets required say at the end of a kitchen counter, the first 6' still needs one general purpose outlet, the first measurement would be within 6' of the cabinet not 12' Like you said.
 

Dennis Alwon

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Staff member
Location
Chapel Hill, NC
Occupation
Retired Electrical Contractor
I agree a neutral will be required at each switch location. I have heard that some of the electronic switches use the ground for the mechanisms within the switch. Perhaps the manufacturers will have to change their evil ways---baby.
 

George Stolz

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Windsor, CO NEC: 2017
Occupation
Service Manager
Here is a recent discussion about the neutral issue. Apparently manufacturers have been using the ground as a neutral for some time, and when it was pointed out to the CMPs they took issue with it.

As for the second item, put simply, a receptacle over a counter space would not count for the wall beside the counter.
 

Dennis Alwon

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Staff member
Location
Chapel Hill, NC
Occupation
Retired Electrical Contractor
Ron-- are you wondering whether the wording means I must include receptacles according to 210.52(A) plus the outlets for 210.52(C). Obviously it does not mean that since counter tops are a different animal but I hear what you are saying.

Charlie will have fun with this wording.:)

I think they are addressing the issue of a peninsula that is wire with a SABC for a kitchen area and the area on the opposite side of the kitchen is a living room. The outlets(SABC) for the peninsula will not be counted as the required outlet for the living room side of the peninsula. Thus you would need to wire the peninsula as wall space and have recep. according to 210.52(A) on the side for the living room.
 

480sparky

Senior Member
Location
Iowegia
Ron-- are you wondering whether the wording means I must include receptacles according to 210.52(A) plus the outlets for 210.52(C). Obviously it does not mean that since counter tops are a different animal but I hear what you are saying.

Charlie will have fun with this wording.:)

I think they are addressing the issue of a peninsula that is wire with a SABC for a kitchen area and the area on the opposite side of the kitchen is a living room. The outlets(SABC) for the peninsula will not be counted as the required outlet for the living room side of the peninsula. Thus you would need to wire the peninsula as wall space and have recep. according to 210.52(A) on the side for the living room.

Take the kitchen and the SABC out of it, and does the same still apply?

For instance, if you have a 12' wall, with a 4' countertop centered on the wall, would a recep in the middle of the wall over the c'top satisfy 210.52(A)(1)?
 

Dennis Alwon

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Chapel Hill, NC
Occupation
Retired Electrical Contractor
Take the kitchen and the SABC out of it, and does the same still apply?

For instance, if you have a 12' wall, with a 4' countertop centered on the wall, would a recep in the middle of the wall over the c'top satisfy 210.52(A)(1)?


IMO, yes however I am not sure that the new wording would support that.
 

Dennis Alwon

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Chapel Hill, NC
Occupation
Retired Electrical Contractor
Does this mean that if a 3-way is being wired up, four wires, plus the ground, need to be run?
It means a neutral needs to be present in a 3 way switch box. That would mean 3 wires plus the neutral and the ground.

Here is an interesting point. Suppose I have 3- 3 way switches from 3 different circuits. This is not being addressed. I believe the intent of this article is to have a neutral present from each circuit that enters the box but that is not what it states, IMO.
 
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