Trouble shooting tip

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ceb58

Senior Member
Location
Raeford, NC
Had a call this afternoon. Lady said her A/C and well pump stopped working but every thing was OK as far as she knew. Get there pull fuses,check OK. Put meter on 27v A ph to G, 124v B ph to G. Go to meter combo on house where A/C and well pump are fed from. 28v ph A to G, 126 PH B to G top and bottom of main breaker:confused:. Shut down all the power to house. Look around inside to see if there is a burned buss bar. Every thing looked ok. Only thing I could think was lost one leg in the underground or on transformer. Told her to call poco. She called and of course had to report it through the automated system crap.

I then decided to cut the seal and look inside the meter base for a burned lug. Every thing looked ok. Checked the bottom jaws got the same voltage. Checked poco's side 125v A side, 126v b side. Then thoughts go to meter has gone bad??? Then poco dispatcher calls tells lady the bill had not been paid and the meter had been booted. She tell him to talk to me.

I tell him there is still power on one leg. He said "we better get some one to come out before it burns up any equipment" DUH, ya think ( did'nt tell I already had power off to house). Mean while lady has husband on cell phone cussing him out for forgetting to pay the bill. Short time later service guy shows up. Tell him what I found, lady is paying cash for the bill, going to get power restored. He pulls meter and the boot on B side has a hole in it about the size of a dime. No damage, he replaces meter all is good. Then the idiot has the nerve to tell me "we can fine you $250.00 for cutting the seal" Go right ahead and fine me I still will make money on it. After I send the poco a bill for a service call and some burned up equipment that your people caused by not knowing what they were doing when they put the boot on and tearing it putting the meter back in. Please fine me, please. He decides to leave, nothing burned up luckily, she paid me in cash and away we go.

Next time you find something strange like this just ask " have you paid the bill"?
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
I have to agree with Ken, with only one leg off of a 240/120 service no damage will happen.


Then the idiot has the nerve to tell me "we can fine you $250.00 for cutting the seal" Go right ahead and fine me I still will make money on it. After I send the poco a bill for a service call and some burned up equipment that your people caused by not knowing what they were doing when they put the boot on and tearing it putting the meter back in. Please fine me, please.

You did cut the seal, you did break the rules. There was no need at all to do that.

Please explain how anything would burn up?
 

augie47

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Tennessee
Occupation
State Electrical Inspector (Retired)
The Dale Carnegie Training Course paid off I see :)
Not sure how it works there, but locally, the next time you needed a POCO disconnect or reconnect I would hope you brought your lunch with you in the truck.
 

growler

Senior Member
Location
Atlanta,GA
Then poco dispatcher calls tells lady the bill had not been paid and the meter had been booted.

Next time you find something strange like this just ask " have you paid the bill"?


Ask if the power company doesn't have different color meter seals to let you know what's going on.

Georgia Power Blue--Active Gold--Inactive Red--Inactive ( non-payment).

Knowing what that red seal means is a good thing to know. :)
 

satcom

Senior Member
Ask if the power company doesn't have different color meter seals to let you know what's going on.

Georgia Power Blue--Active Gold--Inactive Red--Inactive ( non-payment).

Knowing what that red seal means is a good thing to know. :)

When you see a red seal you know your dealing with a dead beat customer, and if the utility can not collect, you better bet your not going to get your money.
 

480sparky

Senior Member
Location
Iowegia
the motor of the ac unit runs full tilt on 1/2 the power required.

A 240v load with one leg disconnected is an open circuit. An open circuit will read 0 volts with a meter. A load with 0 volts cannot operate. Unable to operate, nothing can happen, good (operates as designed and intended) or bad ('burns up').

There are things called controllers, used to control various electrically-powered devices. A controller may disconnect only enough phases or legs to achieve the desired control effect. (It's not uncommon in industrial situations to open two phases of a three-phase circuit to turn a motor off)

Odds are, your own house's AC compressor sitting outside is likely controlled by such a device. Most resi ACs have only one set of contacts that is controlled by the furnace..... one leg is always closed, the other turns the AC on and off. Yet your AC still works today, doesn't it?
 
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K8MHZ

Senior Member
Location
Michigan. It's a beautiful peninsula, I've looked
Occupation
Electrician
Been there, done that...

Been there, done that...

Except in my instance the home was vacant and being sold. Realtor calls me to see if I can figure out why only half the stuff in the house works. I did my usual tracing and when I got to the meter it was red tagged. The rocket scientist that booted it only booted one side of the meter.
 

RICK NAPIER

Senior Member
Location
New Jersey
I had a similar occurance years ago at a beach front condo. The owners normally leave enough money with the utility to get them through the winter but they did not know thier kids had been using the unit and using up thier credit with the utility. In this case half power was a result of back to back kitchens with a kitchen receptacle circuit on the same phase from each unit interconnected. This could have gone on forever with parallel feeds meaning the circuit was now fused at 40 amps.
 

ceb58

Senior Member
Location
Raeford, NC
I have to agree with Ken, with only one leg off of a 240/120 service no damage will happen.




You did cut the seal, you did break the rules. There was no need at all to do that.

Please explain how anything would burn up?

My concern was phase to phase I was reading 113v

As far as cutting the seal here, dont know about your area, but the meter base is customer bought and owned. If I feel it necessary to check any thing in the base then the wire seal will not stop me. Customer wireing must be accessible as far as I am concerned.
 

480sparky

Senior Member
Location
Iowegia
..............As far as cutting the seal here, dont know about your area, but the meter base is customer bought and owned. ..........

But the meter and lock are owed by the POCO. Some of 'em don't take kindly with folk messing around with their cash registers.
 

winnie

Senior Member
Location
Springfield, MA, USA
Occupation
Electric motor research
A 240V circuit with one leg open is simply an open circuit. But a house is not a 240V circuit.

With one leg open at the meter, all the 240V loads are connected to neutral via the 120V loads on the 'open' side.

Depending on the load ratio, the 240V loads will see something less than 120V.

-Jon
 

Rewire

Senior Member
I keep the POCO phone # on speed dial simply call them up give them the meter # they can pull it up on the computer.I always call if I come upon a broken seal had a customer try to unboot his meter and only removed one side.
 

mxslick

Senior Member
Location
SE Idaho
I keep the POCO phone # on speed dial simply call them up give them the meter # they can pull it up on the computer.I always call if I come upon a broken seal had a customer try to unboot his meter and only removed one side.

Best advice on the meter puling issue posted!

Most ANY POCO will allow a sparky to pull a meter for service or troubleshooting, IF they call it in first.

Our local POCO has that policy, no problem with pulling as long as it is called in. Many years ago after I did a service change the POCO guys even gave me a handful of seals and some blank covers and rings for future use. :grin:
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
A 240V circuit with one leg open is simply an open circuit. But a house is not a 240V circuit.

With one leg open at the meter, all the 240V loads are connected to neutral via the 120V loads on the 'open' side.

Depending on the load ratio, the 240V loads will see something less than 120V.

-Jon
The 120 volt loads on the dead side will also have some voltage across them. The same thing happens if you have main fuses and blow one of them or a tree rubs through one line of the service drop or something similar where one line is lost. If you were to turn off all the two pole breakers then you will not get any "back feed" to the dead side and your voltage readings are more obvious that one line was lost. This can be confusing to people that have not seen a lost line or at least seldom see it.

Checking voltage with load and without load connected does help figure it out faster.

Want to complicate it a little more have a three phase system with one or even two open lines and connected line to line as well as line to neutral loads on all three phases and now you have more potential for strange voltages.
 

Ruff-N

Member
As far as cutting the seal here, dont know about your area, but the meter base is customer bought and owned. If I feel it necessary to check any thing in the base then the wire seal will not stop me. Customer wireing must be accessible as far as I am concerned.

Around our area a call to the customers service provider or POCO is all that is needed to allow an electrical contractor to cut the meter seal and remove the meter. Although I agree with you customer buys and owns the m/base so if there is a problem inside the base an electrical contractor should be able to access the base with no problem.
 

ronaldrc

Senior Member
Location
Tennessee
A 120/240 volt single phase service with one disconnected ungrounded line can cause some 120 volt items to burn out if on that line because of feedback from 240 loads such as range or heater loads and the like.

I'm sure some of you old timers have went to service calls with one main fuse blown and when you turn on the oven the lights brighten and dim accordingly.
 
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