Home inspectors wants electrican to access panel box what do you do??

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rt66electric

Senior Member
Location
Oklahoma
I have had several calls...

For a home sale.....

The home inspector wants a qualifed electrician to ACCESS condition of breaker panel.

"this brand of panel know to have failures and issues..."

This usually entails a 1950's to 1960's house with a zinsco or FPE panel.

DO you...?????

Write a invoice stateing is it bad (ready to catch on fire) and must have a $2800 200 amp upgrade....

or Do you ????

Write and invoice... Its fine don't worry about it??? (all houses in this neighbor hood are the same, and none have burnt down)


OR Do your act like a lawyer and side with whomever is paying you???


what is normal rate ?? ? I lost out on the call, because the realtor found someone who could inspect it for tommorow for $55.
 

infinity

Moderator
Staff member
Location
New Jersey
Occupation
Journeyman Electrician
The HI wants someone to assess the condition of a panel or access it so he can evaluate? If it's Zinsco or FPE it's a judgement call as to whether or not it must go based solely on the brand.
 

1793

Senior Member
Location
Louisville, Kentucky
Occupation
Inspector
I have had several calls...

For a home sale.....

The home inspector wants a qualifed electrician to ACCESS condition of breaker panel.

"this brand of panel know to have failures and issues..."...

OR Do your act like a lawyer and side with whomever is paying you???


what is normal rate ?? ? I lost out on the call, because the realtor found someone who could inspect it for tommorow for $55.

I usually "run" all breakers with tester then I turn off each and every breaker, "run" again to verify they are off, turn everything on again, do a final "run" of the breakers to make sure everything is working.

I charge quite a bit more than $55.00.

I write a letter explaining what I did and that everything was working as it should based on what I did at the time I did it.
 

mopowr steve

Senior Member
Location
NW Ohio
Occupation
Electrical contractor
I usually "run" all breakers with tester then I turn off each and every breaker, "run" again to verify they are off, turn everything on again, do a final "run" of the breakers to make sure everything is working.

I charge quite a bit more than $55.00.

I write a letter explaining what I did and that everything was working as it should based on what I did at the time I did it.

Just curious, when you "run" these breakers are you doing a load test of some kind to see if they trip within time limits published within their specs?
 

1793

Senior Member
Location
Louisville, Kentucky
Occupation
Inspector
Just curious, when you "run" these breakers are you doing a load test of some kind to see if they trip within time limits published within their specs?


No. I'm just looking to see if the the breaker is "closed" that it will "open" and then "close" again. I'm NOT doing any more than that nor am I giving any type of certification or warranty.
 

GoldDigger

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Placerville, CA, USA
Occupation
Retired PV System Designer
No. I'm just looking to see if the the breaker is "closed" that it will "open" and then "close" again. I'm NOT doing any more than that nor am I giving any type of certification or warranty.

So you confirm that the handle works, but know nothing about either the mag or thermal trip mechanism?

I suspect that some failed FPE breakers could still be turned off manually. Does anybody know that for sure one way or the other?
 

1793

Senior Member
Location
Louisville, Kentucky
Occupation
Inspector
So you confirm that the handle works, but know nothing about either the mag or thermal trip mechanism?

I suspect that some failed FPE breakers could still be turned off manually. Does anybody know that for sure one way or the other?

That is correct, I just check for Off / On. I make NO other claim.
 

goldstar

Senior Member
Location
New Jersey
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
I'm with Ceb58. I won't take a ladder off my truck for $55.00. You didn't "lose out" on the call. If the realtor found someone to work for $55.00 that person lost out.

If you find an FPE panel I would show the HI this article and let the potential HO make the decision. http://www.pceca.net/images/stories/the_whistleblower_fpe_fraud.pdf Otherwise, the panel may be grandfathered in.

Personally speaking I wouldn't sign my name on a document stating that a Zinsco or FPE panel were in good and working condition. Just my opinion.:cool:
 

JFletcher

Senior Member
Location
Williamsburg, VA
If Im reading you correctly, you mean "assess" rather than "access", yes?


This is a loaded question. Visual inspection of FPE panels can reveal absolutely no problems, and the breakers can be cycled just fine, but when a fault occurs, they dont trip. That's the entire problem with them. If there is corrosion, burnt buss/stabs, missing deadfront etc, ofc it needs to be replaced...faster than would be normally recommended.

Zinscos burn buss bars up and that can be seen at least.

FPE panels arent burning homes down everyday but that's more due to the fact electrical faults, when measured upon millions of miles of cable and billions of connections, are fairly rare occurrences. and conservative design which means if you put 25A on #14 for a while, it *probably* wont burn up, even if the OCPD is no more than a pretty decoration at this point.

and no idea why replacing a 100/125A panel would cost $2800. You do not need a 200A panel or service upgrade in an older home, most times now it's overkill. A SqD Homeline or GE panel will fit right where the old one was, and have modern/better designed breakers...that dont cost $30 a piece like stab-locks do.
 

Strathead

Senior Member
Location
Ocala, Florida, USA
Occupation
Electrician/Estimator/Project Manager/Superintendent
With what I know about breakers, ( a fair amount) I wouldn't "certify" any panel that was installed prior to 1970, period. Let alone a Zinsco or an FPE which have been know to have issues. As much as I think of fuses as "old tech" when I think about it, I would trust a fuse over an old breaker any day.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
Tell them that the proper testing procedures will cost more then equipment replacement - because it is true.

If you are going to tell someone they do work correctly - you must be able to test that they trip at proper current levels and within proper time at certain levels.

Same would be true if testing an install that is only a couple years old.

Also tell them that anyone that "certifies" it without such extensive testing gave a false certification, which basically is what the HI in the OP had requested whether he knew exactly what he was asking for or not.
 

Strathead

Senior Member
Location
Ocala, Florida, USA
Occupation
Electrician/Estimator/Project Manager/Superintendent
Tell them that the proper testing procedures will cost more then equipment replacement - because it is true.

If you are going to tell someone they do work correctly - you must be able to test that they trip at proper current levels and within proper time at certain levels.

Same would be true if testing an install that is only a couple years old.

Also tell them that anyone that "certifies" it without such extensive testing gave a false certification, which basically is what the HI in the OP had requested whether he knew exactly what he was asking for or not.

:thumbsup:
 

active1

Senior Member
Location
Las Vegas
Keep in mind that there is a slim chance of you getting the repair work.

It works like this:

Buyers home inspector is paid to find defects in a home, no matter how small, they need to come up with something.
In this case their report stated to have an electrician look at the service panel.
All liability is off the inspector. Dosen't matter at that point to the inspector if the panel is good or bad.
The buyers demand the seller gets a licensed electrician to look at, determine if repairs are needed, and how much.
The buyer is forced to due this or loose the sale and deposit under inspection due diligence.
On top of that, if the sale falls apart and the home inspector discovered a defect, the seller now needs to disclose that defect to the next buyer(s).

So it starts with the Seller or the sellers agent calling EC's asking for a free estimate sometimes not disclosing the situation.
I've shown up to see a for sale sign in the yard and said nope, not a written estimate without a charge.
Sometimes they will try to pressure you into writing down that it's all good.

Sellers have a choice on a needed repair.
Pay a contractor to fix it. They need the funds. May need to be home during the repairs. May not even be in the state at the time. Risk a contractor doing unacceptable work, damages, price over-runs.
Or credit the money to the buyer at closing. Easy for the seller. The buyer may like that too. As they can take that money and buy some new furniture or something.

At best the seller may call you in a month or two. Or shop your estimate to get a lower price. They never met you, why would they prefer you.

The worst is when a home inspector is wrong. You end up going back and forth having to send a copy of the code and explain cause it's holding up a deal.

Price accordingly.
 

growler

Senior Member
Location
Atlanta,GA
I lost out on the call, because the realtor found someone who could inspect it for tommorow for $55.

I wouldn't worry about it even if the realtor were willing to pay a reasonable amount for an inspection you would probably wish you had never gotten involved.

Some jobs are better left to others.
 

active1

Senior Member
Location
Las Vegas
All the REALTOR(R) wants is there 3% +/-.
The home inspection found something questionable and the agent doesn't want to loose the deal.
The agent is scrambling to get an estimate and get past the due diligence period.
Locking in the buyer at least with their down payment, and getting closer to closing.
A credit at closing the agent makes the same.
Reduction in price the agent makes less.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
Keep in mind that there is a slim chance of you getting the repair work.

It works like this:

Buyers home inspector is paid to find defects in a home, no matter how small, they need to come up with something.
In this case their report stated to have an electrician look at the service panel.
All liability is off the inspector. Dosen't matter at that point to the inspector if the panel is good or bad.
The buyers demand the seller gets a licensed electrician to look at, determine if repairs are needed, and how much.
The buyer is forced to due this or loose the sale and deposit under inspection due diligence.
On top of that, if the sale falls apart and the home inspector discovered a defect, the seller now needs to disclose that defect to the next buyer(s).

So it starts with the Seller or the sellers agent calling EC's asking for a free estimate sometimes not disclosing the situation.
I've shown up to see a for sale sign in the yard and said nope, not a written estimate without a charge.
Sometimes they will try to pressure you into writing down that it's all good.

Sellers have a choice on a needed repair.
Pay a contractor to fix it. They need the funds. May need to be home during the repairs. May not even be in the state at the time. Risk a contractor doing unacceptable work, damages, price over-runs.
Or credit the money to the buyer at closing. Easy for the seller. The buyer may like that too. As they can take that money and buy some new furniture or something.

At best the seller may call you in a month or two. Or shop your estimate to get a lower price. They never met you, why would they prefer you.

The worst is when a home inspector is wrong. You end up going back and forth having to send a copy of the code and explain cause it's holding up a deal.

Price accordingly.
And since the OP's main task was to report the condition of the panel in question and you want to get paid for performing your work then charge them $55 dollars to write a note that says pretty much what I said in this post:

If you want to do your good deed for the day don't charge them to give them that information, you may still impress them enough that either the seller or buyer is interested in having you replace the panel and fixing any other issues that were in the HI report.

Tell them that the proper testing procedures will cost more then equipment replacement - because it is true.

If you are going to tell someone they do work correctly - you must be able to test that they trip at proper current levels and within proper time at certain levels.

Same would be true if testing an install that is only a couple years old.

Also tell them that anyone that "certifies" it without such extensive testing gave a false certification, which basically is what the HI in the OP had requested whether he knew exactly what he was asking for or not.

And let them decide where they want to go with it from there. It was already noted by the HI that there is a panel that has some history with problems, but the only way to truly tell if there is a problem is to run tests that will cost more then simply replacing with new products.
 
My report/quote states: "Zinsco/FPE have many known safety issues that can readily be found by researching them on the Internet. Because of these known problems, we recommend replacement of these panels. In addition, many insurance companies realize that electrical panel replacement is a standard component of home maintenance, and will offer a discount for doing so." (About the only panel I don't feel the need to replace is Square D QO. These panels and breakers seldom have any issues, and I'm happy to relay that customers) I then post the the notice attached from State Farm.

I verbally tell customers that I will not make additions (add circuits) to Zinsco/FPE panels because of what I feel is the liability involved.

I also charge $150 for inspection and report/quote. I get the money on arrival, they get the report within 24hrs. If they use me to replace the service, I will credit the $150 toward the final invoice.
 

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gadfly56

Senior Member
Location
New Jersey
Occupation
Professional Engineer, Fire & Life Safety
The HI wants someone to assess the condition of a panel or access it so he can evaluate? If it's Zinsco or FPE it's a judgement call as to whether or not it must go based solely on the brand.

My insurance company is New Jersey Manufacturers. When they received a copy of the HI's report that noted that the panel was an FPE, they flat out said they wouldn't insure us unless the panel was replaced.
 

active1

Senior Member
Location
Las Vegas
And since the OP's main task was to report the condition of the panel in question and you want to get paid for performing your work then charge them $55 dollars to write a note that says pretty much what I said in this post:

If you want to do your good deed for the day don't charge them to give them that information, you may still impress them enough that either the seller or buyer is interested in having you replace the panel and fixing any other issues that were in the HI report.

Missed part of the point.
You are unlikely to "impress" or sell the buyers.
You have no contact with buyers.
The seller agent sends a copy of an estimate to the buyers agent.
The buyers agent passes it on to the buyers.

Also sellers prefer to provide credits not repairs unless the repair can be done for less than wanted for a credit.

Good deed, don't charge for a new customer moving?
I'd rather give my time to a charity.
Are you sure your business insurance covers good deeds?
 
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