Hypothetical question

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Esthy

Senior Member
Management of a real estate sent electrician to see a "little problem" with a dishwasher circuit. Electrician found that the property was recently "remodeled" and with tenant living there. Electrician found that all GFICs in kitchen and bathroom were removed and the remodelers left the house without those GFCIs. He also found that to operate the dishwasher, the tenant has to pull and extension cord, with the pin ground removed, from underneath of the cabinet to plug in the counter receptacle to operate it, he also found that the garbage disposal receptacle is pulled away from the wall; the exhaust hood disconnected and wiring in an unsafe conditions and because the licensed electrician is also a licensed plumber, he found the dishwasher drain improperly connected, temperature of the water heater below 120 degrees (legionaries), toilets fluid masters not meting the CL requirement and not back flow preventer on hose bib.

Electrician alarmed, run to the management to notify and the necessity to take immediately actions as the tenant also stated that she had some concern about kitchen light flickering and feeling some small current with the appliances.

So, management does not take any action because investor of the property doesn't want to spend more money to fix properly and this is what he hired a "handyman" for that remodel.

So, electrician is very concern about the safety of the tenants and wants to notify authorities, but he is holding. My opinion is to go immediately to the code enforcement authorities. CAN HE BE LIABLE IF SOMETHING HAPPENED TO THIS FAMILY? I have some problems in downloading other photos, I will do following this ...
 

Esthy

Senior Member
Other photos

Other photos

I cannot get the other photos, but see the extension cord resting on the base of the cabinet that the tenant has to pull it out and plug in one of the receptacles and the dishwasher hose going down
 

Dennis Alwon

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Chapel Hill, NC
Occupation
Retired Electrical Contractor
I think he should document what he told management and leave it at that. I am not a lawyer but I don't think even the inspection dept can come into a private residence and make anyone change it.
 

Esthy

Senior Member
Here are others

Here are others

Here are other photos regarding, I m having problems downloading
 

GoldDigger

Moderator
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Location
Placerville, CA, USA
Occupation
Retired PV System Designer
If anybody has a right to complain and possibly force an inspection, it would be the tenant.
Most jurisdictions have housing regulations that prohibit landlords from renting unsafe (uninhabitable) properties.
The judgement by the regulators or courts would be on just how bad the conditions were and whether the landlord was aware of them but refused to correct them.
In the process, the renter may well get kicked out of the home.
 

Esthy

Senior Member
Okay, this is me, according to previous backgrounds (pardon my idiomatic expressions as english is my second language) I was the last "professional and licensed" individual in the property and it is my duty to take action, remember the case with the building sign legal action?
 

Dennis Alwon

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Chapel Hill, NC
Occupation
Retired Electrical Contractor
If this was a remodel job and no permit was taken out then there may be a way. Call the inspection department and see what they say
 

JFletcher

Senior Member
Location
Williamsburg, VA
Wow that is an ugly mess of plumbing, mechanical and electrical issues. I would document in writing exactly what I did and did not do, take pictures (as you have), inform the tenants as well as the mgmt co that hired him.

Some of those issues like the GD receptacle hanging loose may be as easy a fix as installing a box extender, longer screws, and a coverplate (or a surface mount box). Others like the apparent lack of a DW receptacle would be more involved. imho the pics shown represent many serious safety issues.
 
Location
NC/SC
While training for NSPI (national spa and pool institute) certification we spent a lot of time on the liability of certified technicians. I was taught; If you are certified by a licencing board, or industry recognized training organization, and you see a hazardous condition you could be liable. Even if you just casually observed the condition, not in a professional role. We were told to document the hazardous condition and send a certified letter to the owner. I sent one to a relative once. Send the letter.
Ironically, NSPI was sued out of business because of diving deaths in swimming pools that met the minimum diving envelop standard set by NSPI.

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rudiseldb

Member
Location
Oregon City
Most jurisdictions like mine have code enforcement personnel. I would document everything you see and turn them in. We handle stuff like this and worse all the time.


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Besoeker

Senior Member
Location
UK
Most jurisdictions like mine have code enforcement personnel. I would document everything you see and turn them in. We handle stuff like this and worse all the time.
Quite agree. A document trail. I would add one other thing and maybe you have covered that. I would put all correspondence in writing. Don't rely on phone conversations.

And I don't think there is a "do nothing" option for the electrician. If he knows that things are not compliant and pose a risk to people he can't just ignore it. It would be vicarious liability here and I'd be surprised if you don't have something similar there. And, even if not, there is at least a moral responsibility for doing something about it.
 

ActionDave

Chief Moderator
Staff member
Location
Durango, CO, 10 h 20 min from the winged horses.
Occupation
Licensed Electrician
While training for NSPI (national spa and pool institute) certification we spent a lot of time on the liability of certified technicians. I was taught; If you are certified by a licencing board, or industry recognized training organization, and you see a hazardous condition you could be liable. Even if you just casually observed the condition, not in a professional role. We were told to document the hazardous condition and send a certified letter to the owner. I sent one to a relative once. Send the letter.
Ironically, NSPI was sued out of business because of diving deaths in swimming pools that met the minimum diving envelop standard set by NSPI.

Sent from my LGLS991 using Tapatalk

Quite agree. A document trail. I would add one other thing and maybe you have covered that. I would put all correspondence in writing. Don't rely on phone conversations.

And I don't think there is a "do nothing" option for the electrician. If he knows that things are not compliant and pose a risk to people he can't just ignore it. It would be vicarious liability here and I'd be surprised if you don't have something similar there. And, even if not, there is at least a moral responsibility for doing something about it.
There is no way an electrician would be held liable for someone's lousy work just because he walked into the room.
 

gadfly56

Senior Member
Location
New Jersey
Occupation
Professional Engineer, Fire & Life Safety
There is no way an electrician would be held liable for someone's lousy work just because he walked into the room.

That may be true, but if the situation involved a professional engineer it would be different. In all states I know of, the PE has a "duty of care" to the general public. If the unsafe condition led to a property loss or personal injury and it was discovered the PE knew about it and said nothing to a competent authority, he or she could loose his/her license.
 

ActionDave

Chief Moderator
Staff member
Location
Durango, CO, 10 h 20 min from the winged horses.
Occupation
Licensed Electrician
That may be true, but if the situation involved a professional engineer it would be different. In all states I know of, the PE has a "duty of care" to the general public. If the unsafe condition led to a property loss or personal injury and it was discovered the PE knew about it and said nothing to a competent authority, he or she could loose his/her license.

If that is true then no engineer better come over to my house since I don't have a safety net around my trampoline.
 

__dan

Senior Member
There is no way an electrician would be held liable for someone's lousy work just because he walked into the room.


He did more than walk in the room. He was hired to repair the "little problem" with the dishwasher. When he reported to management repairs would exceed a simple service call, he was dismissed.

In the future when there is a claim, you can be sure the people higher up will casually lie and say they did the right thing by hiring an electrician to fix it, even if they were advised of the deficiencies and declined to pay for repairs.

You have to protect yourself. Put it in writing to management and if that results in the termination of your business relationship with them, put it in writing to the statutory building code enforcement agency, the local BO. Then the job will be done.
 

K8MHZ

Senior Member
Location
Michigan. It's a beautiful peninsula, I've looked
Occupation
Electrician
He took pictures. He knows it is unsafe.

Duty of care:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duty_of_care

From your link:

"In tort law, a duty of care is a legal obligation, which is imposed on an individual requiring adherence to a standard of reasonable care while performing any acts that could foreseeably harm others."


To me, it sounds like the 'duty of care' only applies to the person or entity that actually did the work, not to an after the fact observer.
 

Besoeker

Senior Member
Location
UK
From your link:

"In tort law, a duty of care is a legal obligation, which is imposed on an individual requiring adherence to a standard of reasonable care while performing any acts that could foreseeably harm others."


To me, it sounds like the 'duty of care' only applies to the person or entity that actually did the work, not to an after the fact observer.
I think the word "omission" although not expressly stated there is implied.

"Felony is defined under the code as an act or omission punishable by law, committed through culpa or dolo. [1] The words “punishable by law" means that theact or omission must be defined and punished by the Revised Penal Code and no other law."

I think that, had the electrician done nothing about about a hazardous situation, that could reasonably be described as an act of omission.
Perhaps a parallel is not puting labels on electrical panels warning of danger of electrocution - and someone then getting electrocuted because you omitted to do so.
 
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