Surge events causing damage at church

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robeward

Member
Location
raleigh
My home church was rebuild about 15 years ago due to the original church burning down. The new church has suffered several major events that has resulted in damage to multiple pieces of electronics. The average probably isn't one a year but there have been enough that something needs and should have been done about it.

The last few issues have been traced to thunderstorms. Church is in Eastern NC.

I completely understand lightning (if that is the true cause) is a very tricky item to deal with and even with properly installed products to mitigate the effects could have varying results.

There is CSST in the building that was not bonded during install. There is one lightning rod on steeple with a single down conductor to a ground rod. This down conductor was routed down through a chase within inches of a CSST line. :dunce: Within the past year they had a contractor bond the gas system to code. The down conductor was also removed from the chase and routed externally to the ground rod. They also added two ground rods on top of existing so there is now a total of 24' of ground rod.

Since then they had another event (not surprised) that scrambled programmed devices and destroyed a projector. I am not looking for info to lead some DIY effort to address this issue. I am simply requesting a list of things to consider when trying to address this problem. What are the major things that could be contributing to the events or that could help mitigate the events?
 

gadfly56

Senior Member
Location
New Jersey
Occupation
Professional Engineer, Fire & Life Safety
My home church was rebuild about 15 years ago due to the original church burning down. The new church has suffered several major events that has resulted in damage to multiple pieces of electronics. The average probably isn't one a year but there have been enough that something needs and should have been done about it.

The last few issues have been traced to thunderstorms. Church is in Eastern NC.

I completely understand lightning (if that is the true cause) is a very tricky item to deal with and even with properly installed products to mitigate the effects could have varying results.

There is CSST in the building that was not bonded during install. There is one lightning rod on steeple with a single down conductor to a ground rod. This down conductor was routed down through a chase within inches of a CSST line. :dunce: Within the past year they had a contractor bond the gas system to code. The down conductor was also removed from the chase and routed externally to the ground rod. They also added two ground rods on top of existing so there is now a total of 24' of ground rod.

Since then they had another event (not surprised) that scrambled programmed devices and destroyed a projector. I am not looking for info to lead some DIY effort to address this issue. I am simply requesting a list of things to consider when trying to address this problem. What are the major things that could be contributing to the events or that could help mitigate the events?

If the damage wasn't caused by direct strikes but rather by induced surges I doubt that more lightning rods and/or grounding are going to help. Is there a building surge suppressor at the service entrance? What about any sub panels? Is there local surge suppression for high-dollar items (eg on a power strip)? A "defense in depth" approach is where I'd start.
 

winnie

Senior Member
Location
Springfield, MA, USA
Occupation
Electric motor research
On the list of 'things for an appropriate contractor to evaluate':

Is the lightning protection system installed to NFPA 780. I am not an expert on lightning protection systems, but I thought you had to have 2 down conductors.

Are the lightning protection grounding electrodes properly bonded to all other grounding electrodes? Separate electrode systems can actually cause problems, where ground currents from a nearby strike get conducted in via one electrode and out via another.

Are all system grounding electrodes properly bonded together?

-Jon
 

robeward

Member
Location
raleigh
I forgot to mention there is not a surge suppressor on the service entrance or anywhere that i am aware of. that was the first recommendation i made.

They do have a main 3-phase switchboard with sub panels spread about. on the HVAC uses 3-phase with.
 

robeward

Member
Location
raleigh
On the list of 'things for an appropriate contractor to evaluate':

Is the lightning protection system installed to NFPA 780. I am not an expert on lightning protection systems, but I thought you had to have 2 down conductors.

Are the lightning protection grounding electrodes properly bonded to all other grounding electrodes? Separate electrode systems can actually cause problems, where ground currents from a nearby strike get conducted in via one electrode and out via another.

Are all system grounding electrodes properly bonded together?

-Jon

All great questions that I asked myself. I will be doing some reading in 780 to see if there is anything suspect. I have also recommended a very good lightning protection company to consult with.

I don't think the LPS electrodes are bonded to the electrical grounding system. They are on opposite sides of the building. Not sure in this scenario it would matter. As of now it is just a single conductor running up the outside of the building so not sure there is really a way for it to interact with the building wiring. But then again this is lightning so its anybody's best guess. The electrode is buried very close to the slab of the building and I haven't had a chance to see if they are using a CEE or if a ground rod was buried.

The first step I was going to do was check to make sure everything above ground is bonded together. I guess I am on the right track
 

gadfly56

Senior Member
Location
New Jersey
Occupation
Professional Engineer, Fire & Life Safety
All great questions that I asked myself. I will be doing some reading in 780 to see if there is anything suspect. I have also recommended a very good lightning protection company to consult with.

I don't think the LPS electrodes are bonded to the electrical grounding system. They are on opposite sides of the building. Not sure in this scenario it would matter. As of now it is just a single conductor running up the outside of the building so not sure there is really a way for it to interact with the building wiring. But then again this is lightning so its anybody's best guess. The electrode is buried very close to the slab of the building and I haven't had a chance to see if they are using a CEE or if a ground rod was buried.

The first step I was going to do was check to make sure everything above ground is bonded together. I guess I am on the right track

Is the damage being caused by direct strikes or surges coming down the wire from remote strikes?
 

Jraef

Moderator, OTD
Staff member
Location
San Francisco Bay Area, CA, USA
Occupation
Electrical Engineer
Is the damage being caused by direct strikes or surges coming down the wire from remote strikes?
I would consider this far more likely to be the culprit here. If the lightning rod and wiring is up to code, that helps protect from a DIRECT HIT, but does nothing if the hit is next door. But the surge from the hit next door, or next town over, will come in on the lines and fry things. They need a good lightning / surge protection system.
 

brantmacga

Señor Member
Location
Georgia
Occupation
Former Child
Doesn't the appliance bond cover the CSST? I thought there were no additional bonding requirements for that? Or am I thinking of something else?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

mopowr steve

Senior Member
Location
NW Ohio
Occupation
Electrical contractor
Doesn't the appliance bond cover the CSST? I thought there were no additional bonding requirements for that? Or am I thinking of something else?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Your thinking of the regular black pipe is effectively bonded by an appliance not CCST
 

robeward

Member
Location
raleigh
Is the damage being caused by direct strikes or surges coming down the wire from remote strikes?

My question is how would you know? Thats why I think both the existing LPS needs to be surveyed and a SPD installed to address both issues.

Another question. If there are several sub panels spread throughout the church should they consider installing SPDs at those as well? I guess it can't hurt but just a matter of how far you want to take it.

Are receptacles like this worth the time to install for the big items like sound boards and projectors?
https://www.amazon.com/Leviton-5280-W-Suppressor-Receptacle-Industrial/dp/B0006I33Y6
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
I don't think the LPS electrodes are bonded to the electrical grounding system. They are on opposite sides of the building. Not sure in this scenario it would matter. As of now it is just a single conductor running up the outside of the building so not sure there is really a way for it to interact with the building wiring. But then again this is lightning so its anybody's best guess. The electrode is buried very close to the slab of the building and I haven't had a chance to see if they are using a CEE or if a ground rod was buried.
With the high energy in a lightning strike, nearby building wiring will likely get some induced or capacitively coupled voltage on it at some level, they need to be bonded to one another to minimize voltage potential between them.
 

gadfly56

Senior Member
Location
New Jersey
Occupation
Professional Engineer, Fire & Life Safety
My question is how would you know? Thats why I think both the existing LPS needs to be surveyed and a SPD installed to address both issues.

Another question. If there are several sub panels spread throughout the church should they consider installing SPDs at those as well? I guess it can't hurt but just a matter of how far you want to take it.

Are receptacles like this worth the time to install for the big items like sound boards and projectors?
https://www.amazon.com/Leviton-5280-W-Suppressor-Receptacle-Industrial/dp/B0006I33Y6

Well, siding ripped off the building, melted conductors, arc blast marks; you know, the usual. Lightning protection does not guarantee no damage, and considering that you've got one lightning rod and a single down conductor "protection" is a term that might only be loosely applied. The acoustical energy from the collapse of the plasma tunnel is enough to cause significant damage.
 

Jraef

Moderator, OTD
Staff member
Location
San Francisco Bay Area, CA, USA
Occupation
Electrical Engineer
As to the value of those little surge protected outlets, I consider them to be slightly above useless. The protection level values on anything small like that means it will basically protect from a surge caused by something INSIDE your facility, but not from the typical stuff that comes in from the utility side. They are basically relying on the impedance of the circuit to their install point to help out, a LOT. But probably the biggest detractor to all of those small cheap devices it that even if they work, they work ONCE, sacrificing themselves in the effort. Without an indicator showing you that they are dead, you go on merrily thinking you are protected, and you are not.

I prefer SPDs mounted at the service or the panel mains (or both) that have indicators that tell you when it's time to change them. Even then, the ones that are just little LEDs only work if someone looks for it and sees that it's indicating failure. I've used some that have a contact that closes so you can tie in into a BMS system to notify the maintenance people that it needs to be replaced.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
As to the value of those little surge protected outlets, I consider them to be slightly above useless. The protection level values on anything small like that means it will basically protect from a surge caused by something INSIDE your facility, but not from the typical stuff that comes in from the utility side. They are basically relying on the impedance of the circuit to their install point to help out, a LOT. But probably the biggest detractor to all of those small cheap devices it that even if they work, they work ONCE, sacrificing themselves in the effort. Without an indicator showing you that they are dead, you go on merrily thinking you are protected, and you are not.

I prefer SPDs mounted at the service or the panel mains (or both) that have indicators that tell you when it's time to change them. Even then, the ones that are just little LEDs only work if someone looks for it and sees that it's indicating failure. I've used some that have a contact that closes so you can tie in into a BMS system to notify the maintenance people that it needs to be replaced.
It has been a while since I read documentation on any "whole house" surge arrestors, but I seem to recall that for you to take any equipment warranty claims you still must have a local protection device at that equipment.

They know that some surge may still make it past their device, but their device will have knocked it down significantly, so to speak.
 

Ragin Cajun

Senior Member
Location
Upstate S.C.
Check with SURGE SUPPRESSION INC. (SSI), 888-987-TVSS. [SURGESUPPRESSION.COM]. They have good literature. I have been to their seminars and watched the tests and results. Impressive.

I have them on my property and they do work. Spec them in all my projects.

RC
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
I know of at least a couple old churches where they will tell you the current building is the third one they have had and that the previous buildings burned down. But those all were in the days of wood or coal burning heating and I'm sure was a factor in causing the fire.
 

gadfly56

Senior Member
Location
New Jersey
Occupation
Professional Engineer, Fire & Life Safety
I know of at least a couple old churches where they will tell you the current building is the third one they have had and that the previous buildings burned down. But those all were in the days of wood or coal burning heating and I'm sure was a factor in causing the fire.

Really old churches had very little in the way of space heating. Pretty much none in the nave where the congregation sat. Those were huge spaces (relatively speaking) and very expensive no matter what fuel you had. And they were only used once a week. I'd put my money on lightning strikes. In most towns before the turn of the last century the church was the tallest structure. Might still be true for many places today.
 
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