Strange Inspector Question

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ceb58

Senior Member
Location
Raeford, NC
I had an inspection today on a service change. While the inspector was there he ask me a question on another job that has him and me puzzled. The set up is this. Plans for a strip mall show a building that will be cut up into 10 spaces. The plans show a 1000amp service coming to the back in a riser to a trough. From the trough it shows 6 meters and 6 disconnects. 5 would be for tenants, 1 for house service. Then it shows about 20 ft away another 1000amp service coming to the same building in a riser with a trough and 5 meters and disconnects. He and I cannot come up with how they think this will work. 1 building, 2 services and 11 disconnects. The only code compliant way I see it would be to bring in one 2000amp service to a main disconnect then they could set as many meters and discos as needed. Is there something we are missing?
 

Jim W in Tampa

Senior Member
Location
Tampa Florida
If the 2 services had a main disconnect of 1000 i at best would say they are groupded together and you have 2 disconnects. Was this aproved by poco and building department ?
My gut reaction is it is illegal
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
Is there any firewalls or anything that could possibly create "more than one building", then you could have one service to each "building".
 

Jim W in Tampa

Senior Member
Location
Tampa Florida
Is there any firewalls or anything that could possibly create "more than one building", then you could have one service to each "building".

That is 1 way out and seen it on some town houses. Called my boss and was told they are 2 buildings. Hope they never catch fire because fire will easily jump that roof over a 3 foot high wall at roof level.
 

ceb58

Senior Member
Location
Raeford, NC
If the 2 services had a main disconnect of 1000 i at best would say they are groupded together and you have 2 disconnects. Was this aproved by poco and building department ?
My gut reaction is it is illegal

That is what he is doing now is gathering info to reject the plans. He was looking for an opinion as to why it could be done but hasn't found one yet. And as he has stated the exceptions to the 1 service rule are so strict that they wouldn't fall it one of them.

Is there any firewalls or anything that could possibly create "more than one building", then you could have one service to each "building".

That could be one way to look at it. Any code reference? His question has me wanting to find out.
 

Jim W in Tampa

Senior Member
Location
Tampa Florida
I would suggest he carefully reviews prints to see if there is a 2 hour or more fire wall all the way thru that building that the fire marshall will sign off on. That includes any door openings.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
That is what he is doing now is gathering info to reject the plans. He was looking for an opinion as to why it could be done but hasn't found one yet. And as he has stated the exceptions to the 1 service rule are so strict that they wouldn't fall it one of them.



That could be one way to look at it. Any code reference? His question has me wanting to find out.

230.2

230.2 Number of Services.

A building or other structure served shall be supplied by only one service unless permitted in 230.2(A) through (D). For the purpose of 230.40, Exception No. 2 only, underground sets of conductors, 1/0 AWG and larger, running to the same location and connected together at their supply end but not connected together at their load end shall be considered to be supplying one service.

If you have firewalls, the AHJ, and possibly fire marshal or others, will be who determines what is an acceptable firewall, then you have more than one building. Automatically closing fire doors can be acceptable between the separate "buildings".

Wiring that is supplied from the service of one building can not enter the adjacent other building is one problem that can easily come up with this concept, so if you have an area that is common to both buildings, like maybe a hallway, you can not feed the lighting for all of that common area from one building.

Have done this for school bulding additions where it was not desired to feed the addition from the original building service. Ahj required two hour fire rating between buildings before they would consider it separate buildings. Doors between were allowed but must automatically close and be 2 hour doors.
 

augie47

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Tennessee
Occupation
State Electrical Inspector (Retired)
Exhibit 230.2 in the Handbook seesm to show such an installation.
 

ceb58

Senior Member
Location
Raeford, NC
OK sounds good to me. But what about this. Say you have a 100 ftw X 1000ft L building. You cut it into 10 spaces. Then there is a two hr. rated wall between #5 & #6. You have service with meters and discos for 1-5. Then you have a service with meters and discos for 6-10. Would there be a need for 2 house panels to serve lighting under a covered walk way that ran the full length of the building? House panel to serve walk way in front of 1-5 and house panel to serve walk way in front of 6-10.
 

cowboyjwc

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Simi Valley, CA
The reason for the two hour wall used to be so that you could pick up square footage and not have to sprinkler the building, but most jurisdictions have sprinkler ordinances now.

I would say that 20' is not enough to say that it's not grouped in one location.

Ceb58's example is a good one, nothing says you have to cut the building in half.
 

ceb58

Senior Member
Location
Raeford, NC
Talked with the inspector again today. He got a ruling on the plans. The building will have a fire barrier and the building will have a sprinkler system. This would make the building 2 structures.
 

don_resqcapt19

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Illinois
Occupation
retired electrician
Get rid of the outside disconnects and run 2000 amp service to the meters and run service entrance conductors to the panels in each occupancy keeping 230.70(A)(1) in mind.
 

don_resqcapt19

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Illinois
Occupation
retired electrician
That would not fly here. POCOs require disconnects outside when tennants are responsible for the bill.
It meets the rules found in the NEC and is common in this area, but as with everything related to the service, you have to check with the utility.
 
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