Lighting store controller

Status
Not open for further replies.

ElectricMatt

Senior Member
Location
Waco, tx
Okay, I am looking for some recommendations on a request from a customer. Here is what I know...

1. All lighting will be 120v
It is a home building store that is about to start selling light fixtures.
2. The owner wants the capability of controlling each light fixture independently.
3. I am building the system to accommodate approximately 500 fixtures.
4. He would ideally like to be able to have his sales people be able to control the switching from an iPad or wall mount controller. Ideally an iPad.

I do not need to know about figuring the power requirements. I am looking for recommendations on controllers or systems with such a capability. Maybe someone has installed a similar system and knows a specific brand to accommodate this. I know I can call different lighting reps, but before I get to that point I am looking for some recommendations.

Thanks for your help!
 

ronaldrc

Senior Member
Location
Tennessee
Okay, I am looking for some recommendations on a request from a customer. Here is what I know...

1. All lighting will be 120v
It is a home building store that is about to start selling light fixtures.
2. The owner wants the capability of controlling each light fixture independently.
3. I am building the system to accommodate approximately 500 fixtures.
4. He would ideally like to be able to have his sales people be able to control the switching from an iPad or wall mount controller. Ideally an iPad.

I do not need to know about figuring the power requirements. I am looking for recommendations on controllers or systems with such a capability. Maybe someone has installed a similar system and knows a specific brand to accommodate this. I know I can call different lighting reps, but before I get to that point I am looking for some recommendations.

Thanks for your help!

I once wired a house for an Electrical Eng. he had me at that time which was years and years ago
take a door bell wire from his computer location to all the controlled lights.

It was a very costly system he made all his own programs.

You really consult a specialist for that control.

Ronald :)
 

augie47

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Tennessee
Occupation
State Electrical Inspector (Retired)
I would bet the customer has no idea what the cost will be :)
 

SceneryDriver

Senior Member
Location
NJ
Occupation
Electrical and Automation Designer
I would bet the customer has no idea what the cost will be :)

A PLC with an HMI could easily accomplish this; it is simple on-off with the possibility of some combinational logic. The PLC would drive a relay that would control each fixture. The PLC can be programmed to prevent too many light fixtures on a given circuit from being switched on and overloading the circuit. Many HMI's have a mobile app that can be used for remote control.

This would be a large control cabinet. It will not be cheap. Does he understand what running 500 circuits worth of field wiring will cost him?



SceneryDriver
 

SceneryDriver

Senior Member
Location
NJ
Occupation
Electrical and Automation Designer
Another thought:
With this many circuits needing control, it's reasonable to look at a theatrical-style lighting control system, and distributed dimming, instead of running everything back to a large central control rack.

Event Systems DIM-12 dimmer would be a perfect fit for this application. They're 12-channel; 20A 120VAC input, and each channel is capable of up to 5A output. Note that they have a 40W (0.33A) minimum load, to prevent flicker.

http://www.eventsystems.com/pdf/dim12.pdf

I used one on a show for Broadway a few months ago. It was easy to set up, wire, and use.



You'd need a DMX capable controller to operate the dimmer packs; the world is your oyster there. The City Theatrical DMXcat is a good place to start looking. It connects via Bluetooth, and gives you one universe (512 channels) of control. I tested one of these a week ago, and I was impressed with the app's ease of use.

http://www.citytheatrical.com/Produ...956a&pid=e7fe78fb-b839-6b94-9d71-ff00001a956a



SceneryDriver
 

gar

Senior Member
Location
Ann Arbor, Michigan
Occupation
EE
170406-0904 EDT

ElectricMatt:

Try the following search string in Google:

addressable light switch

I think you would want to find an addressable device (dimmer-switch) that is locatable at or near the load to be controlled, and only requires two power wires.

Realistic control could be by a power line carrier signal (think X10, but X10 is possibly inadequate and may have other problems ), a digital two wire bus system (this adds a low voltage bus that goes from one location to another), or a radio frequency digital control (adds no wires).

.



.
 

ElectricMatt

Senior Member
Location
Waco, tx
The customer has NO idea what the cost will be. I asked for a ballpark budget, and he is clueless. I do nothing but t & m work for him, as this job will be, and normally once I have a good idea I tell him and he accepts or shoots it down.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

ElectricMatt

Senior Member
Location
Waco, tx
Another thought:
With this many circuits needing control, it's reasonable to look at a theatrical-style lighting control system, and distributed dimming, instead of running everything back to a large central control rack.

Event Systems DIM-12 dimmer would be a perfect fit for this application. They're 12-channel; 20A 120VAC input, and each channel is capable of up to 5A output. Note that they have a 40W (0.33A) minimum load, to prevent flicker.

http://www.eventsystems.com/pdf/dim12.pdf

I used one on a show for Broadway a few months ago. It was easy to set up, wire, and use.



You'd need a DMX capable controller to operate the dimmer packs; the world is your oyster there. The City Theatrical DMXcat is a good place to start looking. It connects via Bluetooth, and gives you one universe (512 channels) of control. I tested one of these a week ago, and I was impressed with the app's ease of use.

http://www.citytheatrical.com/Produ...956a&pid=e7fe78fb-b839-6b94-9d71-ff00001a956a



SceneryDriver

Awesome, thanks for the recommendation. I am waiting for their rep to give me a call back. Thanks!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

ElectricMatt

Senior Member
Location
Waco, tx
He is going to bring this lighting into the store in some capacity, he pays for design time, and I will be the one to install it regardless of how basic or complex it may become. If it were anyone else I would agree with you 100%, but I lose nothing for doing it. Therefore, I will get all the answers I can from those with more experience in this area and present those options. Thank you for the feedback though, I do appreciate it! ( not sarcastic if it sounds that way)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

SceneryDriver

Senior Member
Location
NJ
Occupation
Electrical and Automation Designer
Awesome, thanks for the recommendation. I am waiting for their rep to give me a call back. Thanks!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

DMX is a fairly easy COM's protocol to work with, but it has quirks if you've never worked with it. PM me if you have questions about the DIM-12 or the DMXcat; I realize I approach things differently since I work in the Entertainment industry. What is standard hardware for me is often oddball for many others.

You'll need (42) dimmer packs to control (500) channels. Since you can only place (32) DMX-controlled devices in a daisy chain before you run into signal problems, you'll need an optosplitter. Put (10) or (11) dimmer packs on each leg of the splitter:

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/prod...ntrol_dmx_branch_4_4_way_dmx_distributor.html



SceneryDriver
 

Fulthrotl

~Autocorrect is My Worst Enema.~
Okay, I am looking for some recommendations on a request from a customer. Here is what I know...

1. All lighting will be 120v
It is a home building store that is about to start selling light fixtures.
2. The owner wants the capability of controlling each light fixture independently.
3. I am building the system to accommodate approximately 500 fixtures.
4. He would ideally like to be able to have his sales people be able to control the switching from an iPad or wall mount controller. Ideally an iPad.

I do not need to know about figuring the power requirements. I am looking for recommendations on controllers or systems with such a capability. Maybe someone has installed a similar system and knows a specific brand to accommodate this. I know I can call different lighting reps, but before I get to that point I am looking for some recommendations.

Thanks for your help!

ok. by god, we can do this if it takes every penny he has.

nLight will be a good place to start. you can blow him out
of the water with a half hours work. this will save you a
lot of unpaid time.

you can thank us later.

it's a plug togeather system that is modular, and scaleable.
pretty easy to program.

500 switchlegs, and a custom panel with pretty push buttons
would be cheaper.

now, an nlight programmable dimming module for one channel
is about $60.

that's $30,000. for parts, and not all the parts you need.

for 500 controllable points. switches are unwieldy.
that leaves a custom interface on an ios device to be built.

so, by the time you do the physical install, a huge strut array
to support the lights with j boxes on it to deliver connection
points, a custom programmed interface, i'd call it $80k~$90k.

how many light fixtures is he going to need to sell, to pay for this?
how many can he sell off a website that can be built for $20K?
 

ElectricMatt

Senior Member
Location
Waco, tx
ok. by god, we can do this if it takes every penny he has.

nLight will be a good place to start. you can blow him out
of the water with a half hours work. this will save you a
lot of unpaid time.

you can thank us later.

it's a plug togeather system that is modular, and scaleable.
pretty easy to program.

500 switchlegs, and a custom panel with pretty push buttons
would be cheaper.

now, an nlight programmable dimming module for one channel
is about $60.

that's $30,000. for parts, and not all the parts you need.

for 500 controllable points. switches are unwieldy.
that leaves a custom interface on an ios device to be built.

so, by the time you do the physical install, a huge strut array
to support the lights with j boxes on it to deliver connection
points, a custom programmed interface, i'd call it $80k~$90k.

how many light fixtures is he going to need to sell, to pay for this?
how many can he sell off a website that can be built for $20K?

I love the reply!!!! I have communicated the potential cost for all of this and he is adamant about moving forward. He still pays my bill, so I am going to continue to try to find the solution that works the best per cost for the customer.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

tortuga

Code Historian
Location
Oregon
Occupation
Electrical Design
DMX is a fairly easy COM's protocol to work with, but it has quirks if you've never worked with it. PM me if you have questions about the DIM-12 or the DMXcat; I realize I approach things differently since I work in the Entertainment industry. What is standard hardware for me is often oddball for many others.

You'll need (42) dimmer packs to control (500) channels. Since you can only place (32) DMX-controlled devices in a daisy chain before you run into signal problems, you'll need an optosplitter. Put (10) or (11) dimmer packs on each leg of the splitter:

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/prod...ntrol_dmx_branch_4_4_way_dmx_distributor.html



SceneryDriver

+1 for the DMX if you want fine grained control.
I would look to a 24VAC DIN mount relay system. As you can then abstract the 24VAC to a PLC or why not a DMX controller.
Avoid the conventional store lighting contactor blocks that use one coil to drive "contact blocks" like the GE CR460.
 

Sierrasparky

Senior Member
Location
USA
Occupation
Electrician ,contractor
You folks are over engineering this.
You can use a simple wireless module at each fixture box. Insteon , zwave , zigbee.
You will need to use several networks and link together.
Probably half the price of Nlight and less proprietary.

Still going to be in the tens of thousands.

A62V_1_201609142091346977.jpg
 

ElectricMatt

Senior Member
Location
Waco, tx
You folks are over engineering this.
You can use a simple wireless module at each fixture box. Insteon , zwave , zigbee.
You will need to use several networks and link together.
Probably half the price of Nlight and less proprietary.

Still going to be in the tens of thousands.

A62V_1_201609142091346977.jpg

The wireless is a concern for me as this is a large metal building. I have looked at both of those options, but looking at the specs there are potential communication issues with the distance and then there will be large groups of them together. The sales rep agreed interference from the other devices could be an issue.

After talking to the owner and letting him have a little sticker shock, we are scaling it back. I am building a simple control panel with off delay timers and relays to manage groups of lighting.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top