Outdoor Hot Tub 680.26(B)(7) bond metal rain gutters?

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Cavie

Senior Member
Location
SW Florida
Florida, or any other state for that matter, is permitted to have their own set of rules. I don't see any requirement in art. 680 for the bonding of metal rain gutters.

They don't have a list of thing to pick from. Anything made of metal under 4 Sq" within 5' of the pool get's bonded. Period. I just did what I was told. The man with the paycheck makes the rules like it or not.
 

Jim W in Tampa

Senior Member
Location
Tampa Florida
Maybe i am reading it wrong but i take it say any metal parts within 5 feet too. What they are trying to do is stop you from reaching any accidently live metal parts while in hot tub or pool.
 

M. D.

Senior Member
Maybe i am reading it wrong but i take it say any metal parts within 5 feet too. What they are trying to do is stop you from reaching any accidently live metal parts while in hot tub or pool.

Live metal parts , bonding is not about live metal parts...
 

Volta

Senior Member
Location
Columbus, Ohio
What code section backs that opinion up?
680.26(B)(7): "... and all fixed metal parts ..."

I can understand a fence but not a gutter.
Why do you feel that the NEC section covers metal fences, but not other fixed metal parts?
Cavie it may be what is expected in Fa. and it may be the intent of the code but it is not what the articles states. I will ask my ever so unpopular question-- "Do you make the EC bond every nail in the siding that is within 5' . I think there is more probability of a nailing energized then a gutter. I have seen siding nails that had hit wires but never saw an energized gutter.
It sure does happen that gutters become energized.
Live metal parts , bonding is not about live metal parts...
True, but it knd of is. Just not intentionally live, of course.
 

Dennis Alwon

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Chapel Hill, NC
Occupation
Retired Electrical Contractor
They don't have a list of thing to pick from. Anything made of metal under 4 Sq" within 5' of the pool get's bonded. Period. I just did what I was told. The man with the paycheck makes the rules like it or not.
I guess the 4" square is your bosses decisions also. I don't get why the AHJ is allowed so much leeway. Personally I think there is alot of abuse of power because of this. If you read it as all metal parts then why add 4sq. inches to the equation.

Jim W in Tampa said:
Maybe i am reading it wrong but i take it say any metal parts within 5 feet too.

As I stated before did you read the heading of what you are quoting. You must take it in context of the sectin it pertains to. The heading states metal wiring methods and Equipment and somehow you keep going back to the sentence under that section and say it means all metal parts. It means all metal parts associated with metal wiring methods and equipment not just all metal parts.

Again if that is the case do you bond every nail. Yes, I am being ridiculous but I am trying to make a point. You can't just take what you feel is right out of it.


What they are trying to do is stop you from reaching any accidently live metal parts while in hot tub or pool.

Perhaps that is the case but that is not what bonding is about. Do you bond windows and door frames that are metal. What about a door knob? Again, no picking and choosing-- either do them all or you are making up your own image of what needs to be done.
 

Cavie

Senior Member
Location
SW Florida
I guess the 4" square is your bosses decisions also. I don't get why the AHJ is allowed so much leeway. Personally I think there is alot of abuse of power because of this. If you read it as all metal parts then why add 4sq. inches to the equation.



As I stated before did you read the heading of what you are quoting. You must take it in context of the sectin it pertains to. The heading states metal wiring methods and Equipment and somehow you keep going back to the sentence under that section and say it means all metal parts. It means all metal parts associated with metal wiring methods and equipment not just all metal parts.

Again if that is the case do you bond every nail. Yes, I am being ridiculous but I am trying to make a point. You can't just take what you feel is right out of it.




Perhaps that is the case but that is not what bonding is about. Do you bond windows and door frames that are metal. What about a door knob? Again, no picking and choosing-- either do them all or you are making up your own image of what needs to be done.


(5) Metal Fittings is where they get the 4" from. That exempts your nails ;)
I wasn't going to go there but yes, metal framed windows and doors get bonded weather new construction or remodel. Door knobs get the 4" exemption.;) ANY METAL within 5' of the pool that is over 4 SQ".
get's bonded.
 

Jim W in Tampa

Senior Member
Location
Tampa Florida
(5) Metal Fittings is where they get the 4" from. That exempts your nails ;)
I wasn't going to go there but yes, metal framed windows and doors get bonded weather new construction or remodel. Door knobs get the 4" exemption.;) ANY METAL within 5' of the pool that is over 4 SQ".
get's bonded.

Curious how would you handle a steel door in a wood frame ?
 

M. D.

Senior Member
(5) Metal Fittings is where they get the 4" from. That exempts your nails ;)
I wasn't going to go there but yes, metal framed windows and doors get bonded weather new construction or remodel. Door knobs get the 4" exemption.;) ANY METAL within 5' of the pool that is over 4 SQ".
get's bonded.

Metal fittings
All metal fittings within or attached to the pool structure shall be bonded. Isolated parts not over 4" in any dimension and do not penetrate the pool structure more than 1" shall not require bonding.

This applies only to metal fittings within or attached to the pool structure
 

M. D.

Senior Member
I had an inspector want me to bond a metal door on a wooden frame that was within 5' of an outdoor hot tub... I think you could actually grab the knob from inside the tub.. I managed to talk him out of requiring me to bond it..
 

Volta

Senior Member
Location
Columbus, Ohio
IMO that applies only to Metal Wiring Methods and Equipment.

A downspout is not electrical.

Certainly not, if everything goes according to plan :grin:.

So what do you think is meant by "metal piping"?

Electrical installations do not include 'piping'. Tubing, conduits, other raceways, sure, but not pipe, unless driven as an electrode.

What do they mean then?
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
I think I may have argued the other side of this sometime in the past.
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:D
 

Dennis Alwon

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Chapel Hill, NC
Occupation
Retired Electrical Contractor
I think I may have argued the other side of this sometime in the past.
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:D
Does that mean you have come over to the far side. :)

Volta, metal piping could be gas pipes that are associated with the tub or in the vicinity (5'). Perhaps a water spigot that is within 5' would be another piping but, IMO not a downspout.
 

M. D.

Senior Member
Certainly not, if everything goes according to plan :grin:.

So what do you think is meant by "metal piping"?

Electrical installations do not include 'piping'. Tubing, conduits, other raceways, sure, but not pipe, unless driven as an electrode.

What do they mean then?

(7) Metal Wiring Methods and Equipment. Metal-sheathed cables and raceways, metal piping, and all fixed metal parts shall be bonded to the equipotential grid.

The "metal piping" could be part of the equipment we are wiring .
 

Volta

Senior Member
Location
Columbus, Ohio
Does that mean you have come over to the far side. :)

Volta, metal piping could be gas pipes that are associated with the tub or in the vicinity (5').
True, but are not electrical equipment.
Perhaps a water spigot that is within 5' would be another piping but, IMO not a downspout.
All I'm thinking is that if some non-associated metal piping (spigot) is subject to this section, why not other fixed metal parts (spouts)?
(7) Metal Wiring Methods and Equipment. Metal-sheathed cables and raceways, metal piping, and all fixed metal parts shall be bonded to the equipotential grid.

The "metal piping" could be part of the equipment we are wiring .
Yes, but IMO it could also be equipment that we are not wiring.
I think I may have argued the other side of this sometime in the past.
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:D
Funny, when I started this first post I thought I was going to take Dennis' view, but then read it differently than I remembered it. I'll have to look at it again tomorrow and see how I feel :roll:.
 

M. D.

Senior Member
Yes, but IMO it could also be equipment that we are not wiring......

Equipment
A general term, including material, fittings, devices, appliances, apparatus, machinery, and the like used as a part of or in connection with, an electrical installation.
 
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