NM cable (romex) in PVC

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don_resqcapt19

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Illinois
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retired electrician
Yes that is what I am saying.

I think that damp location fits it better. It does not meet the definition of wet location.

Bob it is installed in a damp location.

Either way no NM.
There was nothing in the post to indicate that the raceway was installed under some type of cover like a porch. The post indicated that the raceway was installed on an outside wall without any additional protection that would make the area a damp location. The raceway is clearly installed in an above wet location and per 300.9 the inside of that raceway is a wet location.
Location, Wet. Installations underground or in concrete slabs or masonry in direct contact with the earth; in locations subject to saturation with water or other liquids, such as vehicle washing areas; and in unprotected locations exposed to weather.
 

jxofaltrds

Inspector Mike®
Location
Mike P. Columbus Ohio
Occupation
ESI, PI, RBO
There was nothing in the post to indicate that the raceway was installed under some type of cover like a porch. The post indicated that the raceway was installed on an outside wall without any additional protection that would make the area a damp location. The raceway is clearly installed in an above wet location and per 300.9 the inside of that raceway is a wet location.

Don

I just do not believe that the wall can be saturated (full of moisture : made thoroughly wet) or better yet the conduit.

NM is not allowed in wet or damp locations. So we just disagree on which one it is.
 

jxofaltrds

Inspector Mike®
Location
Mike P. Columbus Ohio
Occupation
ESI, PI, RBO
Mike you cannot disagree 300.9 does not allow that.

Bob

I agree with what 300.9 says.

It is not saying the raceway in the above case IS a wet location. It says IF it is a wet location then the interior of the raceway "shall be considered" wet.

300.9 is talking about the interior of the raceway.

The only difference is what wiring method you can use, per 310.8
 
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RICK NAPIER

Senior Member
Location
New Jersey
NEC definitions clearly describes a wet location as an "unprotected location exposed to the weather". From earlier descriptions it would appear that the conduit is in an unprotected location exposed to the weather, as such 300.9 would make the inside of the conduit a wet location.
 

jxofaltrds

Inspector Mike®
Location
Mike P. Columbus Ohio
Occupation
ESI, PI, RBO
NEC definitions clearly describes a wet location as an "unprotected location exposed to the weather". From earlier descriptions it would appear that the conduit is in an unprotected location exposed to the weather, as such 300.9 would make the inside of the conduit a wet location.

Rick

Read the part before your quote. "in locations subject to saturation with water or other liquids".

Will the conduit get wet? Yes. Saturated? I do not think so.

Now if coming out of the foundation it is contact with the ground I'd call it wet.

Still sticking with damp.
 

al hildenbrand

Senior Member
Location
Minnesota
Occupation
Electrical Contractor, Electrical Consultant, Electrical Engineer
IMHO wet and damp are talking about where wiring, devices, or equiment are located. Not what protects them.
Mike,

The Article 100 Definition of wet location uses the word "location" as part of the two word term, so, yes "wet and damp are talking about where wiring, devices, or equiment are located."
Location, Wet. Installations underground or in concrete slabs or masonry in direct contact with the earth; in locations subject to saturation with water or other liquids, such as vehicle washing areas; and in unprotected locations exposed to weather.
But, pay attention to the placement of the semi colons in the definition.

The "middle" location, i.e., "locations subject to saturation . . ." is a seperate part, or, the second of three items in a list of items defined as wet locations.

The third item in the list, i.e., "unprotected locations exposed to weather" stands alone by virtue of the semi colon, and is, therefore, unmodified by the language in the second item ("locations subject to saturation . . .").

A conduit on the outside of a structure that is in a unprotected location exposed to weather is simply and utterly defined as a wet location. Nothing softens that definition, in the definition.

Whether the weather is desert baking dry or rain forest dripping wet has nothing to do with the definition, as both climate conditions are "weather".

The Article 100 Definition of "Location, Wet" forces the OP installation to be defined as "wet", for the length of conduit outside, unprotected and exposed to weather.
 
I have always stripped the sheathing and created a from to using PVC or metallic raceway. It's my understanding that the paper in romex is the reason for not being able to run it in a damp location
 

don_resqcapt19

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Illinois
Occupation
retired electrician
Rick

Read the part before your quote. "in locations subject to saturation with water or other liquids".

Will the conduit get wet? Yes. Saturated? I do not think so.

Now if coming out of the foundation it is contact with the ground I'd call it wet.

Still sticking with damp.
Mike,
The definiton of a wet location contains three independent conditions and one example of a condition.
Location, Wet. Installations under ground or in concrete slabs or masonry in direct contact with the earth; in locations subject to saturation with water or other liquids, such as vehicle washing areas; and in unprotected locations exposed to weather.
There is no question that an exposed conduit on the exterior of a building is a wet location per the third condition of the definition of a wet location.
 

don_resqcapt19

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Illinois
Occupation
retired electrician
My house is in a wet location. Does that make the interior a wet location?

So I can not use NM inside of my home?
Assuming your house is correctly constructed, the inside is not a wet loction. Your house was designed and built to keep the water out. That is not the case with conduit.
 

jxofaltrds

Inspector Mike®
Location
Mike P. Columbus Ohio
Occupation
ESI, PI, RBO
I will concede to the last line. "and in unprotected locations exposed to weather".

Article 100
"Exposed (as applied to wiring methods). On or attacted to the surface or behind panels designed to allow acess."

Since the wire is IN the conduit it is not exposed. So it is not exposed to the weather.

Hence a damp location.

"Location, Damp. Locations protected from weather and not subject to saturation from water *******".
 

RICK NAPIER

Senior Member
Location
New Jersey
As per 300.9 it is not wether the wire is exposed or not to a wet location but if the conduit is. If the conduit is in a wet location then the wire in it is in a wet location.
 

jxofaltrds

Inspector Mike®
Location
Mike P. Columbus Ohio
Occupation
ESI, PI, RBO
As per 300.9 it is not wether the wire is exposed or not to a wet location but if the conduit is. If the conduit is in a wet location then the wire in it is in a wet location.

Rick

I agree with your position.

But where does damp stop and wet start?

How can the first line of damp locations just be dismissed?

What is a partially protected "like location"?

I am glad that NM is not allowed in either location. So we only have to refer to one Article to approve or disapprove its installation.

Everyone has assumed that it is a wet location. What if it is not?

Looks like I win this one the same way I won the hot-cold water bond debate. LOL
 

glene77is

Senior Member
Location
Memphis, TN
I have always stripped the sheathing and created a from to using PVC or metallic raceway. It's my understanding that the paper in romex is the reason for not being able to run it in a damp location

Corey,
In regards to stripping the sheathing from Romex.

IMO, the cable is UL Listed as a cable.
If you strip the sheathing, exposing the conductors,
then you have violated the UL Listing.

Given
(1) the observation that the 'rated as' info
is not printed on the conductors,
(2) the observation that there is no 'nylon' jacket
to protect the conductors insulation from scuffing in conduit,
(3) the insulation used in a Romex cable
looks like THHN, but who can tell?

Then
you have a NEC violation if you strip the sheathing
over the portion that passes through the conduit.

Comments are welcome.
 

Sierrasparky

Senior Member
Location
USA
Occupation
Electrician ,contractor
Corey,
In regards to stripping the sheathing from Romex.

IMO, the cable is UL Listed as a cable.
If you strip the sheathing, exposing the conductors,
then you have violated the UL Listing.

Given
(1) the observation that the 'rated as' info
is not printed on the conductors,
(2) the observation that there is no 'nylon' jacket
to protect the conductors insulation from scuffing in conduit,
(3) the insulation used in a Romex cable
looks like THHN, but who can tell?

Then
you have a NEC violation if you strip the sheathing
over the portion that passes through the conduit.

Comments are welcome.
Southwire's Romex SIMpull ? Type NM-B cable is manufactured as 2, 3, or 4 conductor cable, with a ground wire. Copper
conductors are annealed (soft) copper. Stranded conductors are compressed stranded. Conductor insulation is 90?C-rated
polyvinyl chloride (PVC), nylon jacketed. Southwire's SIMpull ? Designed for Easier Pulling, Resulting in Easier installation.
The cable jacket is color-coded for quick size identification; White - 14 AWG, Yellow - 12 AWG, Orange - 10 AWG, and Black -
8 AWG and 6 AWG"

There is a nylon jacket and it appears that they use the same conductors as their other cables. I agree it is not printed and therefore is a issue. I think its about time that they list the type of wire used in the cable not just it's general construction. I bet if you look at the minimum standards used for the wire construction they are the same as THHN. I think it is quite petty to say that you cannot strip NM and use it in a conduit in a pinch.

Thats my take.

In my prior post I pasted from the Southwire Catalog. "
 
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