Contractor's install not to code ... discovered later ... what to do?

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lakee911

Senior Member
Location
Columbus, OH
I?m going to take off my engineer hat for a moment and put my homeowner/consumer/customer hat on, if you don?t mind.

What do you do when you hire a perfectly legit (licensed, bonded, insured) Contractor (not necessarily electrical, but could be) to perform his/her trade at your place of residence and they don?t do their work to code? So far, easy question, but this was almost a year ago, payments have been made and everything is cleaned up, site restored, etc. It would be a considerable inconvenience to me to have everything opened back up and the work redone.

What are my liabilities as a homeowner and potential seller?

Thanks,
Jason
 

lakee911

Senior Member
Location
Columbus, OH
If it's not to code now, it (probably) wasn't to code a year ago. Where was the inspector?

Here's the deal ... it wasn't inspected. There was an on-going lawsuit between the company doing the work and the City over permitting and inspections. A temporary reprieve was issued by the Court to allow them to continue working without having the City involved.

Their argument was that they know the code and the requirements better than the City inspector and don't want to have to pass on the additional cost to the customer when the Cty is just hungry for money ... or something to the extent.
 

cowboyjwc

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Simi Valley, CA
Here's the deal ... it wasn't inspected. There was an on-going lawsuit between the company doing the work and the City over permitting and inspections. A temporary reprieve was issued by the Court to allow them to continue working without having the City involved.

Their argument was that they know the code and the requirements better than the City inspector and don't want to have to pass on the additional cost to the customer when the Cty is just hungry for money ... or something to the extent.

Well obviously they didn't. I would would call the judge that gave them the reprieve and let him know what happened.

Not getting inspections is one sure way to start getting lazy about how you do things.
 

petersonra

Senior Member
Location
Northern illinois
Occupation
engineer
I think it depends a lot on what the nature of the supposed violations is.

There are a lot of violations that do not introduce any safety hazard at all. Others may introduce some minor issues. Some may be really serious.

I would get worried about violations that introduced some level of hazard far more than trivial things like not labeling the circuits in the panel board, or whether the ground rod was pounded in at a 5 degree angle from the vertical, instead of being completely vertical.

Most places as a seller, you are required to disclose known defects in the house when you sell it, or you have to sell it "as is".

Off the top of my head, without knowing just what the supposed violations are, and whether they really are violations, it is hard for me to give you any sound advice, assuming I have any to give.
 
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480sparky

Senior Member
Location
Iowegia
Here's the deal ... it wasn't inspected. There was an on-going lawsuit between the company doing the work and the City over permitting and inspections. A temporary reprieve was issued by the Court to allow them to continue working without having the City involved.

Their argument was that they know the code and the requirements better than the City inspector and don't want to have to pass on the additional cost to the customer when the Cty is just hungry for money ... or something to the extent.

Then I would say this is a legal matter that needs to be taken to a lawyer, not a bunch of anonymous electricians on an internet forum.
 

tallgirl

Senior Member
Location
Great White North
Occupation
Controls Systems firmware engineer
What are my liabilities as a homeowner and potential seller?

Thanks,
Jason

I'm not a lawyer, so this isn't legal advice.

It was better for you -- liability-wise -- when you didn't think it wasn't up to code.

Could you be more specific about the "not up to code" part? Some "not up to code" things can be solved more readily than others ...
 

lakee911

Senior Member
Location
Columbus, OH
That is a concern of mine, as soon as I go saying it's not to code (and thus I know about), I think I'm just as liable for it not being to code.

The utility (at their request, and at my cost) relocated a portion of my gas line around my detached garage and relocated my meter from my basement to just outside of my garage. The existing (portion of it reused) line and the new line now become part of my 'house line' and are my responsibility (because its after my meter). The existing line is HDPE pipe sleeved in steel and the new line is just HDPE pipe buried in earth.

The installer told me that HDPE pipe must be buried to a depth of 18" to finished grade and that the steel pipe is required to be at a depth of least 12" to finished grade. This is per the Internation Fuel and gas code (NFPA 54).

Upon checking this (from the 2006 version and I don't know if it's the latest) I found the following:

7.1.2.1 Cover Requirements. Underground piping systems shall be installed with a minimum of 12 in. (300 mm) of cover.
(A) The minimum cover shall be increased to 18 in. (460 mm) if external damage to the pipe or tubing from external forces is likely to result.
(B) Where a minimum of 12 in. (300 mm) of cover cannot be provided, the pipe shall be installed in conduit or bridged (shielded) .

When I was digging a trench for my new electrical feed to a depth of 21" (thus top of conduit at least 18"), I found the gas pipe to have approx 8" to 10" of cover! That's below the 12" let alone 18" requirement.

Raising grade is out of the question, unless someone wants to install a catch basin and drain behind the garage (and cross a number of other utilities).

Thoughts? (I know this isn't the best location for advice, but it this is the only place I know that people are concerned about doing the right thing, being safe and give great professional advice. I do understand, though, if the mods won't allow this thread.)

Thanks,
Jason
 

charlie b

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Lockport, IL
Occupation
Retired Electrical Engineer
Step 1: Look at the contract. If it has a warrantee clause, and if you are still within the effective dates (not likely), then you exercise your rights under the contract.

Didn't get a contract? Warrantee expired? Then go to . . .

Step 2a: Find out what it will cost you to get the situation corrected.
Step 2b: Find out what it will cost you to not get the situation corrected (i.e., in terms of reduced sale price on the house).

Then and only then will you have the information needed to go to . . .

Step 3: Call a lawyer.

By the way, a permit and an inspection are tools that protect the owner from the contractor. I once sought out a plumbing contractor to add a gas line to my house. The first one asked me if I wanted to pay to get a permit, or whether I would be willing to go without one. I kicked him out of the house, and hired someone else.
 

jetlag

Senior Member
I think it depends a lot on what the nature of the supposed violations is.

There are a lot of violations that do not introduce any safety hazard at all. Others may introduce some minor issues. Some may be really serious.

I would get worried about violations that introduced some level of hazard far more than trivial things like not labeling the circuits in the panel board, or whether the ground rod was pounded in at a 5 degree angle from the vertical, instead of being completely vertical.

Most places as a seller, you are required to disclose known defects in the house when you sell it, or you have to sell it "as is".

Off the top of my head, without knowing just what the supposed violations are, and whether they really are violations, it is hard for me to give you any sound advice, assuming I have any to give.

Ground rod completely vertical ? NEC250.53 G
 

charlie b

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Lockport, IL
Occupation
Retired Electrical Engineer
You gave us the answer yourself:
(B) Where a minimum of 12 in. (300 mm) of cover cannot be provided, the pipe shall be installed in conduit or bridged (shielded).
You can hand-dig the area above the pipe, and install a "shield." I don't know exactly what that would entail. I suspect a sheet of metal might answer, but the local hardware store (or the city inspectors) should be able to tell you what is needed. The whole idea seems to be that you want to protect the pipe from being hit by someone who later wants to dig a hole in the area, perhaps to plant some garden-related thing. So you put a sheet of metal above the pipe, and the future gardener cannot accidentally damage the pipe.

 

growler

Senior Member
Location
Atlanta,GA
What do you do when you hire a perfectly legit (licensed, bonded, insured) Contractor (not necessarily electrical, but could be) to perform his/her trade at your place of residence and they don?t do their work to code? So far, easy question, but this was almost a year ago, payments have been made and everything is cleaned up, site restored, etc.

I found the gas pipe to have approx 8" to 10" of cover!

Thoughts? (I know this isn't the best location for advice, but it this is the only place I know that people are concerned about doing the right thing, being safe and give great professional advice.

I would contact the company that did the work and explain the situation to them. Often the owners don't know what the people in the field are doing.

If it's a hazardous condition then the company that did the work is responsible for it until the end of time.

Some folks tend to think that once an inspection is passed that's the end of it and others think that once the warranty expires that's the end of it but if you create a hazardous condition and someone is injured or killed there is no set time limit on liability, that's up to the courts to decide.
 

lakee911

Senior Member
Location
Columbus, OH
At this point in the game I would rather have another Contractor (of my choosing) fix the problem at the original Contractor's expense. I will take some photos and finish up my project and give the original Contractor a call.

Thx,
Jason
 

lakee911

Senior Member
Location
Columbus, OH
You gave us the answer yourself: You can hand-dig the area above the pipe, and install a "shield." I don't know exactly what that would entail. I suspect a sheet of metal might answer, but the local hardware store (or the city inspectors) should be able to tell you what is needed. The whole idea seems to be that you want to protect the pipe from being hit by someone who later wants to dig a hole in the area, perhaps to plant some garden-related thing. So you put a sheet of metal above the pipe, and the future gardener cannot accidentally damage the pipe.

Actually the tracer wire is what protected me. I found it quite shallow which alerted me to the pips exact location. I don't think it would constitute as shielding though. :)

Doing this would probably be more work and be more invasive than trenching in a new deeper parallel pipe. We'll see what they'll (want to) do...
 

tallgirl

Senior Member
Location
Great White North
Occupation
Controls Systems firmware engineer
Doing this would probably be more work and be more invasive than trenching in a new deeper parallel pipe. We'll see what they'll (want to) do...

Why do you say it would be more invasive? The existing trench has likely not become as well settled as the surrounding soil.

The only difference is that you won't be able to dig up the dirt with a backhoe or trenching machine. On the flip side, you also won't have to have a completely new piece of pipe installed ...
 

lakee911

Senior Member
Location
Columbus, OH
Why do you say it would be more invasive? The existing trench has likely not become as well settled as the surrounding soil.

The only difference is that you won't be able to dig up the dirt with a backhoe or trenching machine. On the flip side, you also won't have to have a completely new piece of pipe installed ...

The trencher that they used just churns up light fluffy stuff that can easily be put back into the slot that was cut. I compacted, filled and leveled the area pretty well when they were done.




Digging wide enough to install a shield probably couldn't be trenched and its doubtfull that it will be done by hand.
 

petersonra

Senior Member
Location
Northern illinois
Occupation
engineer
At this point in the game I would rather have another Contractor (of my choosing) fix the problem at the original Contractor's expense. I will take some photos and finish up my project and give the original Contractor a call.

Thx,
Jason

I am not sure you have that option, unless they give it to you.

I'd call them and ask about it and see what they say.

I know around here it is common to install the yellow gas piping in lawn areas without any protection other then dirt. I couldn't tell you how deep it goes, but the few I have seen didn't look like 18" deep, but it's been a long time.

Subject to damage is a very vague thing.

I am not sure the way the code is worded that you get the choice to protect it in some way with a shield unless it can't be done any other way.

It would not surprise me at all that getting a trencher in and putting a new line in that has the 18" of cover would be cheaper, simpler, and easier than trying to put some kind of shield over the existing line, if that was even code legal.
 

growler

Senior Member
Location
Atlanta,GA
What are my liabilities as a homeowner and potential seller?

That is a concern of mine, as soon as I go saying it's not to code (and thus I know about), I think I'm just as liable for it not being to code.

The utility (at their request, and at my cost) relocated a portion of my gas line around my detached garage and relocated my meter from my basement to just outside of my garage. The existing (portion of it reused) line and the new line now become part of my 'house line' and are my responsibility (because its after my meter).


Another idea is to call the inspections department and maybe talk to the building code official and maybe they will send someone out to take a look at it and give advice as to what is the best course if action.

A judge may have allowed this company to sub for the utilities without an inspection but you say this is now privately owned and your responsibility.
 

muskrat

Member
Location
St. Louis, MO
I?m going to take off my engineer hat for a moment and put my homeowner/consumer/customer hat on, if you don?t mind.

What do you do when you hire a perfectly legit (licensed, bonded, insured) Contractor (not necessarily electrical, but could be) to perform his/her trade at your place of residence and they don?t do their work to code? So far, easy question, but this was almost a year ago, payments have been made and everything is cleaned up, site restored, etc. It would be a considerable inconvenience to me to have everything opened back up and the work redone.

What are my liabilities as a homeowner and potential seller?

Thanks,
Jason

????not necessarily electrical, but could be??? Time spent to check license of cont. and subs and require only licensed tradesmen on the job would have saved you alot of headaches now. Don't know the law but may have to do the "as is" or warranty the place yourself.IMHO
 

lakee911

Senior Member
Location
Columbus, OH
????not necessarily electrical, but could be???

I'm saying that a non-compliant-to-code install could happen with an electrical contractor just as much as any other contractor.

Time spent to check license of cont. and subs and require only licensed tradesmen on the job would have saved you alot of headaches now. Don't know the law but may have to do the "as is" or warranty the place yourself.IMHO

Yes. You're right. I don't know that they aren't licensed. I didn't have the option of choosing the Contractor as it was the utility themselves.

I'm to call them as I indicated earlier and go from there...
 
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