Attitudes

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renosteinke

Senior Member
Location
NE Arkansas
OK, I know I'm preaching to the choir here ... but a lively conversation today reminded me of a few things ....

The setting is a 'heavy' industrial plant, with both an 'emergency repair' maintenance group and a 'supervising' maintenance group. Nearly all actual 'construction' is performed by outside contractors.

With a recent cold snap, there was a need to install some heat tape on some lines. This proved to be a bit of a problem, as it was difficult to identify the breaker that killed power (as a circuit had to be extended).

The 'electrical supervisor' of the 'supervising' group hit the ceiling. "I have no use for an electrician that can't work 110, even 220, hot! That's what electricians are supposed to do!" He went on to sputter about the 'wasted' time spent looking for the disconnect.

Mind you, this plant claims that 'safety is first' and that you should NEVER work without LOTO. They even have an elaborate bonus program. Fried / injured contractors do not affect the bonus.

-Insert Cussing Intermission here-

After his face cooled down to 'red' from 'orange,' I gently explained that OSHA has been all over EC's the past couple years about working 'hot.' I also suggested that, perhaps, I shold bring in my toner and we could get some circuits identified. Mind you, this place had never even heard of a toner until I brought my assortment in one day.
 

stevebea

Senior Member
Location
Southeastern PA
OK, I know I'm preaching to the choir here ... but a lively conversation today reminded me of a few things ....

The setting is a 'heavy' industrial plant, with both an 'emergency repair' maintenance group and a 'supervising' maintenance group. Nearly all actual 'construction' is performed by outside contractors.

With a recent cold snap, there was a need to install some heat tape on some lines. This proved to be a bit of a problem, as it was difficult to identify the breaker that killed power (as a circuit had to be extended).

The 'electrical supervisor' of the 'supervising' group hit the ceiling. "I have no use for an electrician that can't work 110, even 220, hot! That's what electricians are supposed to do!" He went on to sputter about the 'wasted' time spent looking for the disconnect.

Mind you, this plant claims that 'safety is first' and that you should NEVER work without LOTO. They even have an elaborate bonus program. Fried / injured contractors do not affect the bonus.

-Insert Cussing Intermission here-

After his face cooled down to 'red' from 'orange,' I gently explained that OSHA has been all over EC's the past couple years about working 'hot.' I also suggested that, perhaps, I shold bring in my toner and we could get some circuits identified. Mind you, this place had never even heard of a toner until I brought my assortment in one day.

Excellent self control on your part! I just finished up a small job in an industrial type setting going through and tracing circuitry and making up new panelboard schedules. 52 panelboards and 2 guys for two weeks. Its great to have a customer who will take this serious enough to spend the money!
 

cornbread

Senior Member
I feel your pain. The latest complaint I keep hearing is that 70E puts our plant at a competative disadvantage with plants that do not implement 70E. I can not disagree with that statement, but I keep telling our guys we are doing the right thing and if we get our act together we can implement 70E with out the self induced pain. We are slowly getting there but it has been a struggle.
 

renosteinke

Senior Member
Location
NE Arkansas
Steve, I thenk you for your kind words, but I might have left you, and everyone else, with the wrong impression. I was not directly invloved in this furball - I just stuck my nose in and offers an opinion.

While I hold an EC license, and responded to an ad for an electrician at this big factory, the duties I am assigned to have nothing to do with electric work. Go figure. While the staff here are quite intellegent, the 'system' doesn't seem to encourage looking past the next 30 seconds. I am one of the very, very few folks who has actually done what we would call 'electrical work.' The supervisor in this story, for instance, has a background in materials and PLC programming.

So, I was not the electrician involved, nor was I directly involved in the project. I do know that the company's official policy for its' own folks is "never work hot," and there's a further policy to enforce the company's policies on the contractors. The supervisor was simply in the wrong - but that won't help, as all he needs to do is withold further business from the EC. I wanted to keep that from happening.

I also refrained from mentioning that the one electricution I witnessed involved a VERY experienced man installing a GFCI receptacle 'hot.' I'll save that story for another day.
 

knoppdude

Senior Member
Location
Sacramento,ca
I don't think you are preaching at all, safety is something that should be discussed and practiced all the time. Maybe the company has hot work permits, which would allow the electrician to work with the proper PPE, if the supervisor can provide a valid reason for not de-energizing circuitry. The contractor might have provided such a form, which would detail the work and the risks, and require the "managers" approval. This would take some of the heat off of the contractor if problems arise. Also, good on you for your concern of a fellow EC.
 

stevebea

Senior Member
Location
Southeastern PA
OK, I know I'm preaching to the choir here ... but a lively conversation today reminded me of a few things ....

The setting is a 'heavy' industrial plant, with both an 'emergency repair' maintenance group and a 'supervising' maintenance group. Nearly all actual 'construction' is performed by outside contractors.

With a recent cold snap, there was a need to install some heat tape on some lines. This proved to be a bit of a problem, as it was difficult to identify the breaker that killed power (as a circuit had to be extended).

The 'electrical supervisor' of the 'supervising' group hit the ceiling. "I have no use for an electrician that can't work 110, even 220, hot! That's what electricians are supposed to do!" He went on to sputter about the 'wasted' time spent looking for the disconnect.

Mind you, this plant claims that 'safety is first' and that you should NEVER work without LOTO. They even have an elaborate bonus program. Fried / injured contractors do not affect the bonus.

-Insert Cussing Intermission here-

After his face cooled down to 'red' from 'orange,' I gently explained that OSHA has been all over EC's the past couple years about working 'hot.' I also suggested that, perhaps, I shold bring in my toner and we could get some circuits identified. Mind you, this place had never even heard of a toner until I brought my assortment in one day.

I hear ya brother! It's that way at so many places..... "Safety First" but when it comes down to it it's "Production First". I had this recently at a large industrial facility, after my hour long Contractor Safety Orientation I mentioned that I was going to have to take a substation for a couple hours.... Oh, that really made him squirm. You can guess where I spent my New Year's holiday!:roll:
 

renosteinke

Senior Member
Location
NE Arkansas
I'm heartened by the responses here ... but I'm more amazed that this issue refuses to die at work!

The supervisor claims to have it from the safety director that the contractor is 'qualified' to work 'hot.' I have a pair of problems with that assertion.

The first is that such a blanket assertion is contrary to multiple OSHA rules and company policies - and, trust me, this company isn't shy about expecting contractors to comform to plant rules.

More importantly, I have an issue with the conclusion that, since someone is 'qualified,' an unqualified party can make the decision for him! So what if the contractor is 'qualified' ... to me, that means it's his call, and in this case his call was to kill the power. As I see it, the super has no business questioning that decision- especially since the contractor was 'qualified.'

One statement that was heard was along the lines of "I have no use for an electrician that won't work 'hot' " That statement shows an arrogance, an assumption that the tradesman is little more than a trained chimp - and not the professional that he is.

As for the contractor .... well, I've been in that position more times than I care to recall, and that's why I have spent so much on circuit tracing equipment - and done my damndest to design things 'right' (as opposed to 'cheap').
 
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