LV Smoke Detectors

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mjc

Senior Member
Hi , Have a DSC 832 Security System That supports a 12vdc System Sensor Model# 2100ts Smoke Detector Alarm. It currently uses the 2 wire method of detection, black wire on PGM2, and the red wire on Aux. + . The detectors are are in series, + - input from DSC to detector + - out to the next detector. The last detector has an EOL 2.2K resistor on the + - out terminals. (note there are only two 12vdc detectors in this circuit) FYI -- The house has both the 120v smoke detection and 12vdc Smoke Detection these are separate systems.

Question ... I have a 4 wire 12vdc System Sensor smoke detector model #2412th and can put it on its own wire in the furnace room downstairs or just continue the existing loop. This detector is set up with an R64 E.O.L. Powered from input terminal 1 neg. and 2 pos. . One of its brown output wires go to Aux. contact #5 n.o. and the other to a 2.2k resistor then to Aux. contact #6 com. How do I install the 4 wire detector and connect it to the DSC 832 PC5010 system above? This detector would have to be on a 24 hour monitor in the DSC not just when armed, and I have read that it may need to be programmed to monitor the device.

Thanks in advance, Mike (Master Electrician - Lacking security system knowledge)
 

MichaelGP3

Senior Member
Location
San Francisco bay area
Occupation
Fire Alarm Technician
I'm hoping that there is a much more compelling reason than "I have this detector rolling around in the back of my van that won't cost me anything" to justify the increased complexity to the system you're proposing. Is it doable? Yes. Would I do it? No.
 
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mjc

Senior Member
Mjc

Mjc

Actually , the compelling reason behind this is that, It was'nt found in the back of the truck but found above the drop cieling in my basement. I could tell it was in the circuit at one time cause it was mounted to a joist and the 18- 4 awg conductor going to it was cut about a foot from the detector, the other end of this wire was not connected in the existing loop. The unit had an orange dust cover on it so I'm assuming it will work when necessary but I intend to test it first. ---- Just want to put the detector into the system and benifit from its fuction, and your right it won't cost me anything. Glad you know its doable, thats a comforting step right there.
Just so you know, its not necessary that it be in the 2 wire loop with other detectors, I can put it right into the DCS 832 security panel upstairs, whatever you think is better.

thanks for responding - Mike
 

nhfire77

Senior Member
Location
NH
First,

Replace the 2wire smokes with new ones like a system sensor 2-WB. They are 30$ each.

Then don't use the existing 4 wire and replace it with another 2-WB .

TECHNICALLY the only smokes that are LISTED for a DSC panel are DSC smokes. REALISTICALLY 2-WB will will on 99.999999999999% of all 2 wire smoke zones.

You really can't mix 4 wire and 2 wire on this panel, you can, but it would involve more work and parts than needed.

If you search online hard enough you will find the manual for it. There is a diagram.

Since there is already a 4 wire cable going to the one in the basement you can tie it into the existing 2 wire loop easily.
 
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nhfire77

Senior Member
Location
NH
My vote is for replacing the smoke detectors with new. And not trying to deal with 4 wire detectors.

I don't know anything about DSC. Is this a P832 panel? If so then the 2W-B is UL listed for it. Check out the link to System Sensor's compatibility list.

P832 2 wire smoke detector compatibility list

Just don't ask DSC. As far as they are concerned their alarm panel is only compatible with their detectors. Again, technically.
 

masterinbama

Senior Member
A I could tell it was in the circuit at one time cause it was mounted to a joist and the 18- 4 awg conductor going to it was cut about a foot from the detector, the other end of this wire was not connected in the existing loop. The unit had an orange dust cover on it so I'm assuming it will work when necessary but I intend to test it first.

thanks for responding - Mike

That statement there is enough to tell me it's a problem. It was connected once (wired in but cut loose) but never put in to operation (orange dust cover). Those 2 issues tell me it was a problem to someone else and they gave up on it.
 

mjc

Senior Member
Mjc

Mjc

Good one masterinbama, my thought exactly when I saw the detector was cut out of the system, and the 2.2k EOL resistor was at the last 2 wire detector- just before the 4 wire unit that was cut out of the circuit. I have since run a pull string from the basement to the DSC 832 PC5010 control panel. Would like to put the System Sensor #2412th detector into the DSC but dont really know where it go on the terminal board. Kevinkk sent a nice link to the PC5010 but its what I have on the door of the DSC. Please help.
 

nhfire77

Senior Member
Location
NH
Good one masterinbama, my thought exactly when I saw the detector was cut out of the system, and the 2.2k EOL resistor was at the last 2 wire detector- just before the 4 wire unit that was cut out of the circuit. I have since run a pull string from the basement to the DSC 832 PC5010 control panel. Would like to put the System Sensor #2412th detector into the DSC but dont really know where it go on the terminal board. Kevinkk sent a nice link to the PC5010 but its what I have on the door of the DSC. Please help.

You cannot safely integrate a 4 wire smoke into that panel with 2 wire smokes already in use. There is only one smoke zone.

Unless you are willing to buy a new smoke we can't help you.

There would be no way to reset the smoke in the case of an alarm of the four wire smoke, short of disconnecting power to it.

Replace the 4 wire with a two wire and intergrate it into the two wire loop. And replace the two old two wires, you shouldnt mix the two models on the same loop.
 

mjc

Senior Member
Mjc

Mjc

You cannot safely integrate a 4 wire smoke into that panel with 2 wire smokes already in use. There is only one smoke zone.

Unless you are willing to buy a new smoke we can't help you.

There would be no way to reset the smoke in the case of an alarm of the four wire smoke, short of disconnecting power to it.

Replace the 4 wire with a two wire and intergrate it into the two wire loop. And replace the two old two wires, you shouldnt mix the two models on the same loop.

Thank-you nhfire , the first sentance of your reply sums up what I was looking for. I will purchase a 2 wire smoke and add it to the loop. But am curious on why all smokes should be replaced, only thing I can think of is that by replacing them they would all match and all be new at the time of the replacement. I do have a can of Dry Smoke (aerosol for testing smoke detectors) made by simplex and intend to test each device in the loop.
 

nhfire77

Senior Member
Location
NH
Thank-you nhfire , the first sentance of your reply sums up what I was looking for. I will purchase a 2 wire smoke and add it to the loop. But am curious on why all smokes should be replaced, only thing I can think of is that by replacing them they would all match and all be new at the time of the replacement. I do have a can of Dry Smoke (aerosol for testing smoke detectors) made by simplex and intend to test each device in the loop.

Unless you plan on sensitivity testing (not just a can of smoke) I would not use a smoke that old in my house. Also, it is not proper (industry standard)'to mix two types of smokes on the same loop. And it's your house and they are only $30/each. Technically the 2412 will work with them on the same
Loop, but personally in my own house, new detectors. They haven't made the 2412 for like 8 years and they are probably older. I personally find any detector that doesn't self test sensitivity and older than 10 years old should be replace.

You could look into a system sensor MOD-2. It monitors the 2-wb's sensitivity. But I digress.
 

mjc

Senior Member
Mjc

Mjc

Like it was said, Its not a good thing to integrate 4 wire and 2 wire smokes in the same system. ( thats what I needed to know).

Intentions are to purchase another 2 wire smoke and add it to the existing loop. Clean the existing 8 year old sensors per the MFGR. instuctions, then test all sensors in the loop for sensitivity and with Dry Smoke made by Simplex. I'm not being cheap, by not wanting to buy new stuff but TESTING the device is a must !!!. by the way the house is also protected by a 120v smoke detector system per code.

FYI ... as far as buying all new smokes, I've seen a new 480volt Buss Plug from the MFGR. right out of the box that was shorted Phase to Phase and would have blown-up, immediately if installed. MeggerTesting is a must !!!.
So making sure these things work would be done new or not.
Thanks for the help everyone, Mike --- Detroit, MI
 
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MichaelGP3

Senior Member
Location
San Francisco bay area
Occupation
Fire Alarm Technician
If you can manage to locate a NOS System Sensor 2100ts smoke detector from a supplier (not sure if they are available, System Sensor no longer makes them), you can install it and remain in compliance with the manufacturer's installation instructions (these aren't suggestions; they are meant to be followed) regarding not mixing brands or models of 2 wire smoke detectors on the same loop. If you can't find one of these, you'll need to buy 3 new smokes. The next thing I'd like to convey is my opinion that a furnace room should be protected by a standalone (battery powered or 120 volt, depending on what type your local code requires) carbon monoxide detector. I would also install a heat detector in the furnace room wired into the smoke detector loop, and add the new smoke you're going to buy outside the furnace room. Good luck, and Happy New Year.
 

MAK

Senior Member
You cannot safely integrate a 4 wire smoke into that panel with 2 wire smokes already in use. There is only one smoke zone.

Unless you are willing to buy a new smoke we can't help you.

There would be no way to reset the smoke in the case of an alarm of the four wire smoke, short of disconnecting power to it.

Replace the 4 wire with a two wire and intergrate it into the two wire loop. And replace the two old two wires, you shouldnt mix the two models on the same loop.
Why can't you just connect it to the other pgm and program it for standard fire?
You could reset it via the PGM thru the keypad.
Or am I missing something here?
 

Jaycom

Member
Simplex 2-wire smokes new HSN 5208 compatibility

Simplex 2-wire smokes new HSN 5208 compatibility

Is there any properly listed "interface" device to be installed at the panel location, that could be utilitized to re-use 88 existing Simplex 2-wire smokes (1988 vintage) with a replacement HSN 5208 FACP? The existing Simplex 4000 series panel is no longer reliable nor economically serviceable so we want to change it out, but the vendor is telling me that all of the 88 smokes have to be replaced due to non-compatibility with the new panel. Many are in very high bays, and very expensive to replace.

As a state agency Project Manager I am required to be diligent in determining whether or not such replacements of currently working devices are, in fact, necessary. I am aware of the SD500-SDM device, but the compatibility list does not include Simplex-devices.
 

nhfire77

Senior Member
Location
NH
The panels and smoke have to be listed and compatible with each other. Simplex smokes are only compatible with simplex panels. There is a distinct possibility that the old smokes are no longer compatible with any simplex panels.

You are being told the correct info.
 
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