Tenant modification with pre-existing issues

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sw_ross

Senior Member
Location
NoDak
Looked at a job of modifying a tenant unit for the needs of the new tenant.
It's an old strip-mall style of building that's seen many years worth of evolutions from previous tenants.

The new tenants are willing to pay for modifications to fit their needs, but don't want to be responsible for a complete rewire of the structure, which I can understand. They feel like the owners should be responsible for some costs.

I went into the crawl space to look at what's there to get familiar with things and saw way too many code violations to go into detail. This is a taste of how I found things, I didn't take covers off (there weren't any covers evident anywhere),

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I'm pretty sure there's going to be some time involved in just making the work environment safe for workers (plumbers, etc).
Then there's going to be time involved in working back some circuits that aren't needed/wanted and identifying what's available that can be modified or used for new tenant.

I've already told the tenant this is going to be a T&M job. I need to have a conversation with them about seeing how they want to deal with the owner and that persons responsibility for a portion of the work.

I'd be interested in hearing people's experience with this type of scenario, as well as advise/suggestions.

Thanks!
 

hbiss

EC, Westchester, New York NEC: 2014
Location
Hawthorne, New York NEC: 2014
Occupation
EC
Best you can do is come to some agreement about what needs to be done and let your customer fight it out with the owner over who pays what and how. Stay out of it, that isn't your problem. Whoever hired you pays you. This is a new build-out and is going to be inspected. One way or another that mess is going to have to be cleaned up.

-Hal
 

Buck Parrish

Senior Member
Location
NC & IN
Their are so many variations in tenants needs . Most owners won't cover any of it. Not unless it's in a common use shared areas.
 

sw_ross

Senior Member
Location
NoDak
Here's another pic of just one of several situations that I found to be dangerous; with my tester they appeared to be hot (I know not to fully trust the non-contact tester)!

Even though they're dangerous (if in fact they're hot), I didn't do anything yet about it until there's an agreement between the leasee and the owner.

I plan to have conversation with the tenant on Monday.

There will be plumbing work done in this area also soon.
 

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sw_ross

Senior Member
Location
NoDak
Like hbiss said, I'll communicate some of these issues with the tenants and let them fight it out with the owner.

If it was me leasing the space I would have an expectation that the wiring was reasonably safe and not a fire hazard or a danger to sub-contractors.
 

Buck Parrish

Senior Member
Location
NC & IN
It's pretty common for tenants to remove equipment and leave wires dangling. Some jurisdictions even poco's require an inspection (meter tagged) before it can be turned back on.
 

growler

Senior Member
Location
Atlanta,GA
If it was me leasing the space I would have an expectation that the wiring was reasonably safe and not a fire hazard or a danger to sub-contractors.


Many tenant spaces get completely gutted and rewired. These are the best one's because it's easy to see what's needed.

When you lease a tenant space you get whatever is called for in the lease agreement.


You probably should be talking to the GC that's going to be needed to permit the job. Most of these jobs need a heck of a lot more work than the tenant is aware of.
 

sw_ross

Senior Member
Location
NoDak
I think that is the case here. I "surveyed" the situation on Friday and took lots of pics.
I'll meet with the tenant tomorrow and let them know what I found, they can deal with the owner.

One way or another I'll have to clean things up and bring it up to code to satisfy the AHJ.

This space has previously been food service related (restaraunt?). The new tenants are doing something similar, ovens/grill/hood, ice cream cones, espresso type coffees.

Originally I told them that maybe we'd be able to used some of the existing circuits and just modify to meet their needs. Now, after seeing what exists in the crawl space, I'm thinking it might be easier, safer, and more efficient for me to spend a few hours dismantling all the birds nests of wires and boxes and starting from scratch for the new tenants needs.
That way I'm not relying on stuff that I didn't install, and whether there's an effective EGC,etc.
 
Now, after seeing what exists in the crawl space, I'm thinking it might be easier, safer, and more efficient for me to spend a few hours dismantling all the birds nests of wires and boxes and starting from scratch for the new tenants needs.

That makes a lot of sense. You'd probably remove the ends of many branch circuits anyway (since they're never in the right place), this time just remove things back until you get something clean & easy to verify. And explain to the new tenant that it'll be cheaper in the long run to remove the unknown than to figure out what's what.
 

RumRunner

Senior Member
Location
SCV Ca, USA
Occupation
Retired EE
Looked at a job of modifying a tenant unit for the needs of the new tenant.
It's an old strip-mall style of building that's seen many years worth of evolutions from previous tenants.

The new tenants are willing to pay for modifications to fit their needs, but don't want to be responsible for a complete rewire of the structure, which I can understand. They feel like the owners should be responsible for some costs.

I went into the crawl space to look at what's there to get familiar with things and saw way too many code violations to go into detail. This is a taste of how I found things, I didn't take covers off (there weren't any covers evident anywhere),

View attachment 20101 View attachment 20102

I'm pretty sure there's going to be some time involved in just making the work environment safe for workers (plumbers, etc).
Then there's going to be time involved in working back some circuits that aren't needed/wanted and identifying what's available that can be modified or used for new tenant.

I've already told the tenant this is going to be a T&M job. I need to have a conversation with them about seeing how they want to deal with the owner and that persons responsibility for a portion of the work.

I'd be interested in hearing people's experience with this type of scenario, as well as advise/suggestions.

Thanks!



I don't think it's your business to make that judgment whether the existing condition is non compliant, even though it is evident that it is not.

You are the sub and GC is supposed to pull a permit and all subs would pull their own. Pulling your own permit (ie electrical) is a pre-requisite for a field inspection before final approval for occupancy is issued. Since this is commercial install, this is definitely a must unlike residential installation. But the GC bears some burden too if the job didn't get a final approval. In fact, all subs wouldn't get paid if the owner can't use his assets.

It is contingent upon the AHJ's acceptance of the whole project based on the suitability of the completed job—that is, if it is indeed fit for human utilization.

Having said this, you need to coordinate with the GC because he too will be affected even though he is not doing the electrical portion.

Actually the tenant would be the last person you should be dealing with.

This is how it works in my neck of the woods. :roll:
 

petersonra

Senior Member
Location
Northern illinois
Occupation
engineer
I don't think it's your business to make that judgment whether the existing condition is non compliant, even though it is evident that it is not.

You are the sub and GC is supposed to pull a permit and all subs would pull their own. Pulling your own permit (ie electrical) is a pre-requisite for a field inspection before final approval for occupancy is issued. Since this is commercial install, this is definitely a must unlike residential installation. But the GC bears some burden too if the job didn't get a final approval. In fact, all subs wouldn't get paid if the owner can't use his assets.

It is contingent upon the AHJ's acceptance of the whole project based on the suitability of the completed job—that is, if it is indeed fit for human utilization.

Having said this, you need to coordinate with the GC because he too will be affected even though he is not doing the electrical portion.

Actually the tenant would be the last person you should be dealing with.

This is how it works in my neck of the woods. :roll:

I don't know how it works where you are but it is not unusual around here for tenants to more or less act as their own GC to try and save money. It does not seem to work all that well but they keep trying it. A lot of times it is just one tenant space being renovated and the new tenant is responsible for whatever has to be done. not normally true for new construction.
 

RumRunner

Senior Member
Location
SCV Ca, USA
Occupation
Retired EE
I don't know how it works where you are but it is not unusual around here for tenants to more or less act as their own GC to try and save money. It does not seem to work all that well but they keep trying it. A lot of times it is just one tenant space being renovated and the new tenant is responsible for whatever has to be done. not normally true for new construction.

Not here.
The owner (let alone tenant ) of a commercial building can not act as GC unless he is a registered CA contractor.

If the tenant/owner contract stipulates that owner would build to suit then the tenant would have a lot to say.

Still need it inspected to satisfy the insurance company for safety compliance and liability that goes with it.
 

petersonra

Senior Member
Location
Northern illinois
Occupation
engineer
Not here.
The owner (let alone tenant ) of a commercial building can not act as GC unless he is a registered CA contractor.

If the tenant/owner contract stipulates that owner would build to suit then the tenant would have a lot to say.

Still need it inspected to satisfy the insurance company for safety compliance and liability that goes with it.

note that I said more or less act as their own GC. there is no general rule here that you have to have a GC. you can hire a carpenter to do carpentry, and a plumbing contractor to do plumbing, and an EC to do electrical work.
 

cowboyjwc

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Simi Valley, CA
Not here.
The owner (let alone tenant ) of a commercial building can not act as GC unless he is a registered CA contractor.

If the tenant/owner contract stipulates that owner would build to suit then the tenant would have a lot to say.

Still need it inspected to satisfy the insurance company for safety compliance and liability that goes with it.
That is not correct, the building owner may pull the permits and act as an owner builder.
 

gadfly56

Senior Member
Location
New Jersey
Occupation
Professional Engineer, Fire & Life Safety
That is not correct, the building owner may pull the permits and act as an owner builder.

Is that true for commercial work? In NJ I can pull a permit and do my own electrical work for my own domicile. However, if I own a rental unit, I'd better be calling a licensed contractor to work in there.
 

growler

Senior Member
Location
Atlanta,GA
note that I said more or less act as their own GC. there is no general rule here that you have to have a GC. you can hire a carpenter to do carpentry, and a plumbing contractor to do plumbing, and an EC to do electrical work.

You can kind of do that here. But the problem starts when the EC or the plumber pulls a permit for the work or the mall demands that permits be pulled. Anything that will get an inspector on the job. He/she looks around and asked why there is no remodeling permit. Then things get a little complicated.

When you make any kind of changes ( to the layout and everyone does) to a commercial space you really need a whole new certificate of occupancy, to include a Fire Marshals inspection.

They may get away with not getting a GC in some areas but I wouldn't try it in a major metro area.
 
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