Private Property vs NEC

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Jody Boehs

Member
Location
Fairview, Oklahoma, USA
Occupation
Controls and Electrical Manager
Hello,

I don't know if I'm posting this question in the the right category, but anyhow, here it is.

Does the NEC apply on private property?

The reason I'm asking is...I work in a xxxxx Plant. This plant is privately owned and operated. We operate 24/7. Since we produce xxxx, I was told we are an agricultural business and that the NEC does not apply here. However, this plants occupancy at any one time is "lots of" people. Plant square footage is "large".

Is this a question for the local state Construction Industries Board?

Please give me some insight to this. I came to work here over a year ago and I've run into numerous code violations, not only in existing electrical work, but also new installations I'm told to put in. I've tried to challenge the fact that some of the work I am required to do is in violation, but I can't change their(supervisors) minds. I am a journeyman and they(supervisors) obviously think they know more about the NEC than I do.

Thanks in Advance!!
 
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Location
NE (9.06 miles @5.9 Degrees from Winged Horses)
Occupation
EC - retired
You can try, but good luck.

Here, you would not be considered Ag,but being exempt from inspection does not mean the installations are exempt from the NEC. The State of Nebraska has adopted the NEC as a minimum standard that I, as a licensed EC, must abide by. Your state* may have different standards.

Do the best you can do, and go home.
 
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petersonra

Senior Member
Location
Northern illinois
Occupation
engineer
Hello,

I don't know if I'm posting this question in the the right category, but anyhow, here it is.

Does the NEC apply on private property?

... *

Thanks in Advance!!
Most places the NEC applies on all private property by AHJ decree and often not on public property, although it is not unusual for public bodies to also adopt the NEC for their properties.

Whatever governmental entity decides such things will get to decide whether it applies to this plant.

I'd be real surprised if whatever codes apply generally in your state did not apply to this plant. A lot of places have some ag exemptions but they normally apply to farms and not manufacturing plants.

I would ask this though. Suppose you pursue this and it turns out you are right and your bosses are wrong. What do you plan to do then? Rat them out?
 
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charlie b

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Lockport, IL
Occupation
Retired Electrical Engineer
They are wrong. Look at article 90.2(A), particularly sub articles (1) and (3). Your building falls into both categories, notably because sub article (1) includes private premises and because you are connected to a public utility.

Now, whether any person or organization with authority will choose to take any action, and whether you could face any consequences for reporting the problems, is more than I can say. But if you think you or your coworkers are endangered by the existing code violations, you will have a tough decision to make. I wish you the best. Stay safe; that is the most important thing.
 

rbalex

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Mission Viejo, CA
Occupation
Professional Electrical Engineer
Many people forget OSHA enforces the NEC where there is an employer/employee relationship. Other scenarios, such mines, marine or military facilities, etc., are governed by other federal agencies, but, unless there is a specific need to do otherwise, they will also enforce the NEC.

Being enforced by OSHA after-the-fact is dreadful.
 

petersonra

Senior Member
Location
Northern illinois
Occupation
engineer
incidentally, you might not want to put so much negative information out on the internet about the company you work for. I suspect it would not be real hard for someone to figure out what xxxx* plant in xx*has xxx*employees and is about xxxx* square feet in size. you might get a big surprise instead of a paycheck.
 
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Andy Delle

Senior Member
Location
Los Angeles CA
incidentally, you might not want to put so much negative information out on the internet about the company you work for. I suspect it would not be real hard for someone to figure out what dog food plant in OK has 150 employees and is about 174,000 square feet in size. you might get a big surprise instead of a paycheck.

Well I certainly don't want xxxx* from a non NEC compliant plant :D
 
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Jraef

Moderator, OTD
Staff member
Location
San Francisco Bay Area, CA, USA
Occupation
Electrical Engineer
Many people forget OSHA enforces the NEC where there is an employer/employee relationship. Other scenarios, such mines, marine or military facilities, etc., are governed by other federal agencies, but, unless there is a specific need to do otherwise, they will also enforce the NEC.

Being enforced by OSHA after-the-fact is dreadful.
Yes. OSHA are not the police, but they are the Judge, Jury and Executioner...
Once they get involved, everyone loses. The employer loses money, maybe their business, employees lose their jobs.

https://www.osha.gov/pls/oshaweb/ow..._type=STANDARDS&p_toc_level=1&p_keyvalue=1910
Part S is where all the electrical standards start.
302.(a)(2) lists the only places where these rules don't apply, and only because those have their own set of rules.

1910.302(a)(2)(i)

Installations in ships, watercraft, railway rolling stock, aircraft, or automotive vehicles other than mobile homes and recreational vehicles;

1910.302(a)(2)(ii)

Installations underground in mines;

1910.302(a)(2)(iii)

Installations of railways for generation, transformation, transmission, or distribution of power used exclusively for operation of rolling stock or installations used exclusively for signaling and communication purposes;

1910.302(a)(2)(iv)

Installations of communication equipment under the exclusive control of communication utilities, located outdoors or in building spaces used exclusively for such installations; or.

1910.302(a)(2)(v)

Installations under the exclusive control of electric utilities for the purpose of communication or metering; or for the generation, control, transformation, transmission, and distribution of electric energy located in buildings used exclusively by utilities for such purposes or located outdoors on property owned or leased by the utility or on public highways, streets, roads, etc., or outdoors by established rights on private property.
That highlighted area in the last paragraph is where people often MISTAKENLY assume that if it is "private property", the rules don't apply. But they are missing the fact that the FIRST line applies first, i.e. "Installations under the exclusive control of electric utilities...".

Bottom line if your employer has employees, OSHA rules apply and the basic rule is, electrical systems must be safe. Code violations, whether you agree or not, are an important standard by which that is determined. So if someone is injured and OSHA gets involved, all of those code violations will sink the ship.
 

romex jockey

Senior Member
Location
Vermont
Occupation
electrician
You better punch out
You better just fly
Better not pout
I'm telling you why
Osha dude is coming to town
He's making a list
And checking it twice;
Gonna find out who's naughty and nice
Osha dude is coming to town
He sees you when you're working
He knows when you're unsafe
He knows if you've been bad or good
So comply for goodness sake!


~RJ~
 

ramsy

Roger Ruhle dba NoFixNoPay
Location
LA basin, CA
Occupation
Service Electrician 2020 NEC
Being enforced by OSHA after-the-fact is dreadful.

Yes, with employers, only OSHA & perhaps Insurance Inspectors as defined in Art.100 under AHJ, and NEC 90.4.

It's also possible that OSHA Finds Nothing - :

Besides OSHA being a day late & dollar short to every posthumous party, plant managers constructively document how injured parties fail to meet NEC 100 definition of "Qualified Person", when manager authorization was not given to access the area.

Under NEC Exceptions: "In industrial occupancies, where conditions of maintenance and supervision ensure that only qualified persons service the equipment,..." most NEC rules are under legal exception, not enforceable by OSHA, or Insurance inspectors.

With the sudden erection of clear signage stating "Access to qualified personnel only", and perhaps no evidence of qualifying-training records, the OSHA man may find employee witnesses suddenly don't speak English, much less contradict the plant managers. "No habla ingless"

In conservative regimes, where Self-Regulation rules the day, the Holy Grail of Working Safe may be Working for Yourself.

The hazardous dilemmas many young people find themselves working in, becomes a motive for side work, to build their own client base. Being re-patronized for a safe job well done is the reward only your clients can provide.
 

Jamesco

Senior Member
Location
Iowa
Occupation
Master Electrician
Hello,

I don't know if I'm posting this question in the the right category, but anyhow, here it is.

.... *

Thanks in Advance!!


I've tried to challenge the fact that some of the work I am required to do is in violation, but I can't change their(supervisors) minds. I am a journeyman and they(supervisors) obviously think they know more about the NEC than I do.

You may have already burned your bridges by voicing your objections to the NEC violations. If any of the NEC violations could cause injury or death to workers you could have called OSHA anonymously prompting an inspection of the facility. Maybe.... Some States have laws stating OSHA must get permission from the owner to enter the facility.

Calling OSHA now would more than likely point the finger at you as being the one that called them. Companies are smarter than you think. You won't be confronted by management as being the one that called OSHA. You will just be let go a few months down the road. As a martyr you will be forgotten by your fellow workers quicker than you think.


Just curious, could you give some examples of NEC violations that could cause injury or death to workers working in the Plant.

.
 
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Location
NE (9.06 miles @5.9 Degrees from Winged Horses)
Occupation
EC - retired
You may have already burned your bridges by voicing your objections to the NEC violations. If any of the NEC violations could cause injury or death to workers you could have called OSHA anonymously prompting an inspection of the facility. Maybe.... Some States have laws stating OSHA must get permission from the owner to enter the facility.

Calling OSHA now would more than likely point the finger at you as being the one that called them. Companies are smarter than you think. You won't be confronted by management as being the one that called OSHA. You will just be let go a few months down the road. As a martyr you will be forgotten by your fellow workers quicker than you think.


Just curious, could you give some examples of NEC violations that could cause injury or death to workers working in the Plant.

.

Or the business closes entirely. That has happened in this area. The equipment and owner were just to old. Easier and cheaper to retire both.
 

petersonra

Senior Member
Location
Northern illinois
Occupation
engineer
To me a lot depends on just what the nature of the supposed NEC violations are.

There are people who believe all kinds of things are violations that actually are not.

There are all kinds of violations that while they are violations do not create any actual hazard.

There are all kinds of things that violate later versions of code that were code acceptable at the time of install. Generally if it was legal at the time of install, there is no need to change it if the code changes.

I would be most worried about actual hazards.
 

Aleman

Senior Member
Location
Southern Ca, USA
It is common to see minor code violations and much work is never inspected. As mentioned there are many NEC violations that don't
pose any real hazards. But some do pose real hazards, so it depends on what type of violations you are seeing. I would be concerned
about undersized wire, oversized protection, lack of protection, poor or no grounding etc. If you are seeing violations of this type then
that puts you in tough situation for sure. Some violations can create fire hazards, and a fire burning up all that xxxx might cause some
side effects besides burns.
 
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