Red Hooded Sweatshirt / Hardhats

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George Stolz

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Staff member
Location
Windsor, CO NEC: 2017
Occupation
Service Manager
An esteemed gentleman (insert your own disparaging title here) writing tickets at the job. Then it was embraced as gospel. I'm appealing to a higher power. :)

Something about blinders...?
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
Where I work the only thing allowed under a hard hat is a real helmet liner, no hoods.

Our safety guy reads it as the linked OSHA document does.
 

renosteinke

Senior Member
Location
NE Arkansas
Few things annoy me more than when "safety" is used by some neanderthal to bully or abuse those he sees as 'under' him. Nor have I much use for when 'safety' is used as a BS excuse to cover for a discretionary management decision. If a firm wants to have a dress code, come out and say it, and provide a suitable alternative ... don't blame "OSHA" just because you don't like something.

Just as bad are bureaucratic responses such as the one (nice link, BTW) provided by OSHA when asked. The clown freely admits that there's no prohibition - but then goes on to say 'we prefer ...' Hell, I 'prefer' winning lottery tickets - but for some reason they don't let me return the losers. Imagine that. That's what 'preferences' mean.

Let's cut to the chase, and look at the ANSI test standards. An impact is provided to a single point dead center at the top of the hard hat. That's it. There's NO assessment of the ability of the hat to remain on your head, block rain, or take hits anywhere else. All that's expected is that the suspension distribute the force of the impact all over the test 'head.' The different ANSI helmet standards (for bicycle helmets, motorcycle helmets, etc.) all differ only in the shapes of the impactor and the test head. (Which is why it's hard to say if a skateboard helmet would qualify as a hard hat).

With that simple test in mind, it's pretty clear that any hat or hood will not affect the test - unless it has some feature (like the button on the top of a baseball cap) that would concentrate the forces at one place. FWIW, none of the liners marketed for use with hard hats have ever been tested with any hard hats. We 'know' their effect no more than we 'know' the effect any other hood might have on the performance of the hard hat.

That's not to give a blanket endorsement to hoods. Here I expect some intellegence to apply. It is conceivable that a hood might - I emphasize might - present other hazards. For example, by getting caught in machinery or by obstructing side vision. It would be an exceptional circumstance were this to happen.

Finally, let's look at someone with extensive experience wearing helmets: the military. They have all manner of headwear - including, now, a Sikh with a turban - that they've managed to wear under helmets without problems. They.ve managed to get hoods on their jackets that do not block side vision, and that stow out of the way.
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
Few things annoy me more than when "safety" is used by some neanderthal to bully or abuse those he sees as 'under' him.


Great ...... as long as we are talking about what annoys us let me have my turn.

Nothing annoys me more than people posting long winded rants without even trying to actually answer the question that was asked.:mad:

The question was about OSHAs rules not how we feel about OSHAs rules.

What each of us thinks about it is irrelevant, the only issue is what OSHA thinks of it and with the official interpretation posted it would be foolhardy to ignore it.

OSHA fines are expensive and costly to fight. Just simply buy a helmet liner and be done with it.
 

renosteinke

Senior Member
Location
NE Arkansas
A bit off topic, but objecting to "those silly cowboy hard hats" is wrong- at least, as a general matter.

The 'cowboy' hats have passed the same exact standard as any other. They are both impact and electrical rated. They meet the standards.

There is nothing in the ANSI standard that gives any direction as to the style of a hard hat. There's no reason that one could not make such a helmet that looked like a "Zulu"-era British helmet, a WW 1-era French helmet, or even a chinese coolie hat. There's no requirement that they even have a brim at all.

True, it may not be appropriate to wear a particular style in specific circumstances; for example, the 'full brim' styles may not be suitable in tight spaces, and plastic ones might not be suitable where they might be exposed to certain chemicals. Those are specific applications.

The objection to the 'silly' hats is a great example of management hiding their own bias behind the skirts of a non-existant OSHA rule. If their position is simply "this is my property and I get to decide," then they need to have the courage to say so. If their attitude is "anything new or different must be wrong," IMO they have no business being in management.
 

renosteinke

Senior Member
Location
NE Arkansas
Thank you, Iwire, for your input ... but, by golly, their are rules to follow.

Just as we expect electrical inspectors to be able to cite the code violation they are enforcing ... it is perfectly proper to expect an imaginary OSHA inspector to be able to cite their rule. If the best they can come up with is one of their own saying "there's no such rule, but we wish there was" ... well, where's the citation?

We are 'citizens,' and not 'subjects.' Look it up :D
 

jim dungar

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Wisconsin
Occupation
PE (Retired) - Power Systems
What each of us thinks about it is irrelevant, the only issue is what OSHA thinks of it and with the official interpretation posted it would be foolhardy to ignore it.

Part of the problem is in getting a meaningful OSHA ruling.

The referenced interpretation says:
"Garments not specifically designed for use with hard hats
In contrast, if the use of a garment were to detract from the hard hat's protective properties, it may no longer meet the specification requirements in these ANSI standards. If that were the case, its use would violate ?1926.100"

Therefore if the garment does not detract from the hat's protective property, it is allowed by OSHA. Now who gets to decide if the performance is affected?
 

K8MHZ

Senior Member
Location
Michigan. It's a beautiful peninsula, I've looked
Occupation
Electrician
What if it's so cold you wear both?

I did that one winter and managed to keep my hard hat on with no problem. I did have the type you screw down to fit. I doubt I would have had the same luck with a cheapy that you can't adjust while it's on your head.

There was a loss of peripheral vision, I'll be the first to admit. But losing some field of view is preferable to being unbearably cold.

Most conditions aren't that extreme and one or the other would work fine. That being said, a hardhat liner is not only warmer than a sweatshirt hood, but if worn correctly poses no loss of peripheral vision.
 

USMC1302

Senior Member
Location
NW Indiana
Maybe I missed something, but I read the OSHA link to mean the ANSI standards were RECOMMENDATIONS, and in the end to contact the hard hat manufacturer. It does make some sense to figure a thick hood might mean the hard hat doesn't fit right, but as was mentioned there are hoods designed to be used with hard hats. George, there's your money maker. Design a sweatshirt whose hood has the gizmos to attach your hard hat.
 
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