Bonding the Hot Water pipe.

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Hello,
I'm working a job in Downtown Los Angeles area and the inspector hit me for not having a HOT water bond. I'm familar with inspectors calling for the gas to cold water, which I did at the water heater; then in a continious run, ran to the new 100 amp meter main service. I ran an additional bond straight to the new ground rod just below the panel. Doesn't the fact that the plumbing is tied together at the facets eliminate the need for a redundant bond to the hot water?
Thanks.
 

Dennis Alwon

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Chapel Hill, NC
Occupation
Retired Electrical Contractor
I am not sure the faucet with their flex lines etc would give enough of a bond but, IMO the water tank itself is bonding the pipes together. That said some areas require a jumper from the hot to cold pipes.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
If hot and cold are electricially continuous through components (that are not intended to be removed in normal operations) such as mixing valves, water tanks, byass loops, etc then only one point needs bonded.
 
My thoughts

My thoughts

That was my thought. The soldered connections in any of the mixing valves ( shower, tub) would effectively bond the hot and cold systems; This would be in addition to the water heater itself.
 

augie47

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Tennessee
Occupation
State Electrical Inspector (Retired)
It's been discussed and cussed here more than once. The areas that require it do so because of the use of plastic/fiberglass,etc. fixtures and hot water tanks which
can result in a system with an unbonded hot water line.
I think it's often a "rather to be safe than sorry" situation and since it takes little effort the E/Cs often do so without question.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
It's been discussed and cussed here more than once. The areas that require it do so because of the use of plastic/fiberglass,etc. fixtures and hot water tanks which
can result in a system with an unbonded hot water line.
I think it's often a "rather to be safe than sorry" situation and since it takes little effort the E/Cs often do so without question.

But you can't really be prepared for the unknown either. How are we supposed to know todaa what will be done to a line in two years that interrupts the continuity of that line? And how are we to know just exactly where it will happen?
 

Dennis Alwon

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Chapel Hill, NC
Occupation
Retired Electrical Contractor
But you can't really be prepared for the unknown either. How are we supposed to know todaa what will be done to a line in two years that interrupts the continuity of that line? And how are we to know just exactly where it will happen?

I don't think Gus is saying one way or the other. He seems to feel it isn't a big deal so why not just jump it--
 
Similar Situation

Similar Situation

I was recenlty called for a service call by a local restraunt. The commercial corridor that the restruant is located on is going through reconstruction and all the over head utilities are being moved under ground. So before the service change can be made each business and residance must be inspected. The inspector sited the owner with not being bonded from the main disconnect to the water pipe entrance and not having a GEC Jumping across the water meter. I had never been sited or failed for not placing a jumper on the water pipe across the water meter in either commercial or residential applications. This particular inspector I have had little interaction with so I questioned him and my usual inspectors on the jumper rule. The answer I received from all parties was that this continues the bond for the water system and the hot water heaters in case the water meter is removed from the system but it is not mandetory per NY Code. This did make some practical sense to me but making an additional bond to the hot water pipes seems alittle over kill but hey whats it gonna hurt.

However it does get extremely frustrating when the none of the inspectors in my region play by the same rules.

Devin
" The rude renigade from NY"
 

augie47

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Tennessee
Occupation
State Electrical Inspector (Retired)
But you can't really be prepared for the unknown either. How are we supposed to know todaa what will be done to a line in two years that interrupts the continuity of that line? And how are we to know just exactly where it will happen?

The practice (bonding the hot) has been in place for sometime and generally accepted, so I can only relate what I was told.
I don't think it's a "what if in the future" situation so much as simple means to assure the pipe is bonded without having to inspect every plumbing component or obtain verification.
I'm sure someone could elect not to install the jumper and live with the delay of awaiting verification. In terms of simplifying the inspection everyone simply installs the jumper.
 

BILLY101

Member
Location
Telford, Pa
Just remember the soldiers that were electocuted in showers in Irag. The reason has been reported to be improper grounding.
Always bond anything metal.
Plumbing fittings sometimes are electrically isolated for corrosion purposes when dissimilar metals are used.
Water heaters are an example of this.
Water softeners use plastic valves.

BILLY
 

Electric-Light

Senior Member
The metals maybe "touching" but even stainless braided lines don't provide very low resistance between the two ends. If you measure the resistance, you'll see it in multiple ohms.

Some braided lines are completely non-metallic, such as BrassCraft.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
Just remember the soldiers that were electocuted in showers in Irag. The reason has been reported to be improper grounding.
Always bond anything metal.
Plumbing fittings sometimes are electrically isolated for corrosion purposes when dissimilar metals are used.
Water heaters are an example of this.
Water softeners use plastic valves.

BILLY

That statement still leaves hundreds of possibilities of what may have happened.

Was the facility where this happened utility served or by on site generation?

Was there equipment grounding conductors separated from grounded circuit conductors at all points beyond service or system bonding point?

If utility service what condition was the grounding of the utility system and what wiring practices were used on the utility system.

I'm guessing many places there have poor soil conditions for conductivity - at least near the surface. Put something like a shower there with its constant moisture and you now have great soil conductivity in the vicinity. Any stray currents in the earth will easily impose voltage differences between the damp soil in the area to any grounded object, then put people there standing barefooted and they become even more sensitive to it - more contact area.

Don't know the facts of the case there, but these are some things I think should be considered at the design stage of the facility, an equipotential plane could be well worth consideration in this installation, even if not a code requirement.
 

Cow

Senior Member
Location
Eastern Oregon
Occupation
Electrician
But you can't really be prepared for the unknown either. How are we supposed to know todaa what will be done to a line in two years that interrupts the continuity of that line? And how are we to know just exactly where it will happen?

I agree. But there are also a lot of electricians that pull ground wires in emt too. Myself included.
 

jwelectric

Senior Member
Location
North Carolina
A lot of answers to the original poster of this thread have made the comment that the metal water pipe is not continuous.

For these I ask this one simple question:

Where in the NEC can you cite that the metal water pipes of a building are required to be electrically continuous? If there is not requirement to keep these metal pipes electrically continuous just how can anyone require a jumper on anything?

Be advised that the requirement of 250.53(D)(1) is requiring that the path between the interior metal pipe and the electrode (the pipe that is in the earth) can?t rely on a removable device but it can be wired in the following manner, GEC from the service to the electrode and a bonding conductor from the interior metal water pipe to the service and no bonding around anything would be required.


The one thing I find interesting is that ?electricians? think that there are two water systems in a building, hot and cold but plumbers think there are two water systems in a building one potable and the other waste. Plumbers call the hot and cold ?one? potable system but just what do they know after all we are the smart ones, we are electricians and know that the metal water pipes are to be electrically continuous although no one can point out this requirement.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
A lot of answers to the original poster of this thread have made the comment that the metal water pipe is not continuous.

For these I ask this one simple question:

Where in the NEC can you cite that the metal water pipes of a building are required to be electrically continuous? If there is not requirement to keep these metal pipes electrically continuous just how can anyone require a jumper on anything?

Be advised that the requirement of 250.53(D)(1) is requiring that the path between the interior metal pipe and the electrode (the pipe that is in the earth) can?t rely on a removable device but it can be wired in the following manner, GEC from the service to the electrode and a bonding conductor from the interior metal water pipe to the service and no bonding around anything would be required.


The one thing I find interesting is that ?electricians? think that there are two water systems in a building, hot and cold but plumbers think there are two water systems in a building one potable and the other waste. Plumbers call the hot and cold ?one? potable system but just what do they know after all we are the smart ones, we are electricians and know that the metal water pipes are to be electrically continuous although no one can point out this requirement.

pretty much my thoughts. For those that think a metallic water tank, or metallic mixing valve does not provide continuity - prove it. If those items do not provide continuity then every elbow, coupling, or other fitting shouldn't either and bonding jumpers are required on every segment of piping. The truth is there is likely better continuity here than what you may have through the bonding jumpers that you install.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
Alot of plumbers use dielectric unions at the water heater to reduce galvanic reactions in the tank. May be reason AHJ wants bonding cold to hot.

If there is dielectric unions the AHJ has every right to want to bond hot to cold unless there is obvious bond deeming it unnecessary.

More obvious situation would be a water softener with non metallic connections (fairly common) and a metallic bypass valve in metallic lines. If an inspector ever wants me to bond around that I will have to edumacate him, hopefully the easy way.
 

jwelectric

Senior Member
Location
North Carolina
Alot of plumbers use dielectric unions at the water heater to reduce galvanic reactions in the tank. May be reason AHJ wants bonding cold to hot.
Why? Is there some requirement for the metal pipes to be electrically continuous?

If there is dielectric unions the AHJ has every right to want to bond hot to cold unless there is obvious bond deeming it unnecessary. More obvious situation would be a water softener with non metallic connections (fairly common) and a metallic bypass valve in metallic lines. If an inspector ever wants me to bond around that I will have to edumacate him, hopefully the easy way.
Could you please point out the requirement for this?
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
Why? Is there some requirement for the metal pipes to be electrically continuous?


Could you please point out the requirement for this?

Could you tell me why metallic piping and fittings between the sections in question does not bond them together? Maybe even with less resistance than a bonding clamp that depends on the pressure of the screws in the clamp to maintain continuity?

Water heater is not likely to have a bypass valve. Many new water softeners do have bypass valve as part of unit. Many plumbers have and still do put in bypass valve ahead of softener connections. If this is metallic piping and valve why would you need to install a bonding jumper? Hot and cold water systems often do have metallic mixing valves at showers, laundry, etc that provide highly conductive path between the two.

If the valves are not allowed to be considered bonding the pipes on each side of the valves then we should have to bond around every fitting in the system.

The argument that a bonding jumper at the water heater is easier for inspector to verify is simply stupid. How does he know there is not an isolating device someplace else if all he is looking at is the water heater. He needs to do his job and look at more than just the water heater. If new construction he was there at rough in, maybe he could have opened his eyes long enough to look at the plumbing a little.
 
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