Converting aluminum 220v electric range outlet to 110v for gas cooktop

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redz2500

Member
Location
Concord,ca 94520
Hello,

I am a contractor that quoted a dedicated circuit for a gas cooktop. Another contractor quoted to convert the 50 amp 3 wire aluminum cable to 20 amp 120v for a standard outlet. I know that this is not code compliant but am being called on it by the customer yet can't seem to find the specific code. Is there a code that directly covers this situation, and am I correct on it not being code compliant?
 

tom baker

First Chief Moderator
Staff member
240.4 conductors have to be protected at their rated ampacity. Would not be compliant to pigtail the existing range circuit a length of 12 AWG.
Also the branch circuit receptacle is based on the OCPD size. You can't install a 20 amp device on a 50 amp branch circuit.
 

roger

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Fl
Occupation
Retired Electrician
Hello,

I am a contractor that quoted a dedicated circuit for a gas cooktop. Another contractor quoted to convert the 50 amp 3 wire aluminum cable to 20 amp 120v for a standard outlet. I know that this is not code compliant but am being called on it by the customer yet can't seem to find the specific code. Is there a code that directly covers this situation, and am I correct on it not being code compliant?

The other contractors proposal is fine, there is nothing wrong with putting a 20 amp breaker in front of higher ampacity conductors.

Roger
 

infinity

Moderator
Staff member
Location
New Jersey
Occupation
Journeyman Electrician
Hello,

I am a contractor that quoted a dedicated circuit for a gas cooktop. Another contractor quoted to convert the 50 amp 3 wire aluminum cable to 20 amp 120v for a standard outlet. I know that this is not code compliant but am being called on it by the customer yet can't seem to find the specific code. Is there a code that directly covers this situation, and am I correct on it not being code compliant?

If you change the OCPD to 20 amps and the receptacle to 20 amps it is code complaint. Instead of a 240 volt circuit you'll end up with a 120 volt circuit with larger conductors.
 

winnie

Senior Member
Location
Springfield, MA, USA
Occupation
Electric motor research
The devil may be in the details.

The original circuit is described as 'three wire aluminium'.

Does the existing wire provide a properly sized and properly color coded EGC?

Are the splices rated to connect the large size Al wire to #12 Cu?

With the appropriate splices is proper box fill maintained?

But in general I agree, this sort of conversion probably can be done in a code compliant manner.

If the existing circuit were a modern 4 wire, then there is an even easier option:
http://www.southwiretools.com/tools/tools/9042SW8801?override=desktop

-Jon
 

davegerver

Member
Location
pa
See nothing wrong with it. Bigger is always better. As long as outlet is properly protected you could run 500s. Would not fit under a 20amp breakers but there's ways around that

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
The devil may be in the details.

The original circuit is described as 'three wire aluminium'.

Does the existing wire provide a properly sized and properly color coded EGC?

Are the splices rated to connect the large size Al wire to #12 Cu?

With the appropriate splices is proper box fill maintained?

But in general I agree, this sort of conversion probably can be done in a code compliant manner.

If the existing circuit were a modern 4 wire, then there is an even easier option:
http://www.southwiretools.com/tools/tools/9042SW8801?override=desktop

-Jon
I agree that proper color coding is likely the main thing that is a code issue that doesn't have some code acceptable work around. If conductors are 4 AWG or larger they can be field marked if they aren't the right color.
 

macmikeman

Senior Member
The third party proposer could strip the insulation off the former insulated with a white marking conductor to make it bare where it is exposed on each end of the cable. Then he can use it for an equipment ground and no coloring required. And there is nothing, and I repeat nothing wrong in using a larger size conductor properly protected and terminated to a smaller circuit overload protective device such as a circuit breaker. (or a fuse).
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
The third party proposer could strip the insulation off the former insulated with a white marking conductor to make it bare where it is exposed on each end of the cable. Then he can use it for an equipment ground and no coloring required. And there is nothing, and I repeat nothing wrong in using a larger size conductor properly protected and terminated to a smaller circuit overload protective device such as a circuit breaker. (or a fuse).

But the 120 volt circuit needs a white conductor.

To be NEC compliant the EGC needs to be green or bare for it's entire length for conductors 6 AWG and smaller.
 

Sierrasparky

Senior Member
Location
USA
Occupation
Electrician ,contractor
Done it all the time. I've yet to come across a cable that does not have a white and a ground. SER cable, 2 wire nm w/g.
But that is out here in the west.

Use Polaris type connectors to go from the AL to CU
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
Done it all the time. I've yet to come across a cable that does not have a white and a ground. SER cable, 2 wire nm w/g.
But that is out here in the west.

Use Polaris type connectors to go from the AL to CU

Certainly you have seen 8-3 or 6-3 with no ground NM cable used for this where it was normal and permitted to bond the appliance frame to the grounded conductor? Or did nearly everyone use SE cable in your area? Was kind of 50-50 around here.
 

jap

Senior Member
Occupation
Electrician
See nothing wrong with it. Bigger is always better. As long as outlet is properly protected you could run 500s. Would not fit under a 20amp breakers but there's ways around that

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

Bigger is not always better.

Especially when it comes to terminating conductors.

Actually, using bigger conductors than what are actually needed is a reason to make good electricians throw up in their mouth a little bit when they see what the jack leg before them did to reduce the size.

JAP>
 

Sierrasparky

Senior Member
Location
USA
Occupation
Electrician ,contractor
Certainly you have seen 8-3 or 6-3 with no ground NM cable used for this where it was normal and permitted to bond the appliance frame to the grounded conductor? Or did nearly everyone use SE cable in your area? Was kind of 50-50 around here.

Actually not.
Seen plenty of 3 prong receptacles terminated with the white on the neutral/ground and the ground wire laying in the box. ( 50/50 the ground was terminated to a lug in the metal box. )
Not a single 3 wire and no ground. SE cable, 2 wire w/ground and the bare used as the neutral.
But no 3 wire NM and no ground.
 

Adamjamma

Senior Member
But the 120 volt circuit needs a white conductor.

To be NEC compliant the EGC needs to be green or bare for it's entire length for conductors 6 AWG and smaller.

But, when we use tape to make a wire show as live, is that not re marking a wire?
Also, using sleeving for showing the ground wire, is that not re marking the wire?

Personally, I see no reason why we cannot do it, but, I also have run into many plugs for stoves that actually had four wires already in the box... so you mayy find the wires are already in place, including the ground...
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
But, when we use tape to make a wire show as live, is that not re marking a wire?
Also, using sleeving for showing the ground wire, is that not re marking the wire?

Personally, I see no reason why we cannot do it, but, I also have run into many plugs for stoves that actually had four wires already in the box... so you mayy find the wires are already in place, including the ground...
Raceway wiring methods you can't re-identify grounded or equipment grounding conductors as general rule, they must be white, gray, green, green with yellow stripe....unless they are 4 AWG or larger.

Cable assemblies you can re-identify a white conductor for use as an ungrounded conductor.

I'd have to read to be certain but I can't recall it ever mentioning re-identifying a conductor to use for the grounded conductor. (still speaking cables less than 4 AWG)

I'd also have to read to be certain but I don't think you can re-identify a conductor for use as an EGC (also still speaking cables less than 4 AWG) it must be green, green with yellow stripe or bare - it's entire length.
 

LarryFine

Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
Location
Henrico County, VA
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
I have re-purposed 3-wire range cables for 120v, re-identifying one line conductor with white tape and using big blue wire-nuts to connect pigtails at both ends where necessary (receptacle and 1p breaker), and will continue to do so. I replace the range receptacle with a 4"sq box and raised cover. Whether technically legal or not, perfectly safe when done right.
 

Little Bill

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Tennessee NEC:2017
Occupation
Semi-Retired Electrician
I have re-purposed 3-wire range cables for 120v, re-identifying one line conductor with white tape and using big blue wire-nuts to connect pigtails at both ends where necessary (receptacle and 1p breaker), and will continue to do so. I replace the range receptacle with a 4"sq box and raised cover. Whether technically legal or not, perfectly safe when done right.

I do the same.
 

Adamjamma

Senior Member
Raceway wiring methods you can't re-identify grounded or equipment grounding conductors as general rule, they must be white, gray, green, green with yellow stripe....unless they are 4 AWG or larger.

Cable assemblies you can re-identify a white conductor for use as an ungrounded conductor.

I'd have to read to be certain but I can't recall it ever mentioning re-identifying a conductor to use for the grounded conductor. (still speaking cables less than 4 AWG)

I'd also have to read to be certain but I don't think you can re-identify a conductor for use as an EGC (also still speaking cables less than 4 AWG) it must be green, green with yellow stripe or bare - it's entire length.

But, if it is inside a conduit, that runs from the breaker box to the outlet, thus no access, and in most cases I deal with, the conduit is encased in concrete as well, there is never access to the cable to change anything except at the breaker box or at the outlet box, so, having a sleeve over it, ideally a sleeve that is heatshrunk onto it, should be allowed, as one would have no idea what color the wire is in the conduit, unlike an NM cable where you can cut it at different places.

Thus, this should be dependant upon installation methods rather than a blanket rule.
At least in Jamaica, where most of my work is done, tape is allowed, so what I do as normal is run my wires according to the current British codes, then mark the wire with both an American color tape and a Jamaican color tape, so a person from any of the three countries can see what is happening. Local inspector loves it. Luckily, heatshrink is cheap..lol
 

LarryFine

Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
Location
Henrico County, VA
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
But, if it is inside a conduit, that runs from the breaker box to the outlet, thus no access, and in most cases I deal with, the conduit is encased in concrete as well, there is never access to the cable to change anything except at the breaker box or at the outlet box, so, having a sleeve over it, ideally a sleeve that is heatshrunk onto it, should be allowed, as one would have no idea what color the wire is in the conduit, unlike an NM cable where you can cut it at different places.
The reasoning is that, since it is conduit, there is no reason to not replace the existing conductor with one of the proper color.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
But, if it is inside a conduit, that runs from the breaker box to the outlet, thus no access, and in most cases I deal with, the conduit is encased in concrete as well, there is never access to the cable to change anything except at the breaker box or at the outlet box, so, having a sleeve over it, ideally a sleeve that is heatshrunk onto it, should be allowed, as one would have no idea what color the wire is in the conduit, unlike an NM cable where you can cut it at different places.

Thus, this should be dependant upon installation methods rather than a blanket rule.
At least in Jamaica, where most of my work is done, tape is allowed, so what I do as normal is run my wires according to the current British codes, then mark the wire with both an American color tape and a Jamaican color tape, so a person from any of the three countries can see what is happening. Local inspector loves it. Luckily, heatshrink is cheap..lol
You are supposed to be able to pull conductors out of a raceway and re-install the correct ones needed.
 
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