What would you require?

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ceb58

Senior Member
Location
Raeford, NC
Have a situation that happened Wednesday and am curious as to what you would require. We buy prefab communication buildings. The buildings come in all ready wired. They have a main disco inside that has TVSS systems tied to them. They then go through a ATS to a MDP. From the MDP a UPS is fed along with 2 HVAC units, lights and gen. use recpt. From the UPS are surge protected outlets. The feeders from the 40kw gen. were installed and it is a solid neutral system.
The GC's that is in charge of the set up has his sub contractor elect. install a meter combo on the out side of the building and tie into the main disco inside. They also run and connect the gen. feeders.
The communication tech's went there Wednesday to start their install. They turned on the main and things started smoking and snap,crackle and pop. One tech. ran like a girl, the other finally got his whits about him and killed the main after about 2-3 mins. of what in the world is going on.
On Thursday my counter part went to look to find out what and who was responsible. When he opened the meter combo the first thing he saw was a 3/0 with about 4 inches of WHITE tape lugged in under the phase B of the main breaker. The neutral was in its proper place every where else.
We know that the modules in the TVSS are shot, the HVAC unit tried to single phase. Some of the surge protected recpts. are gone along with lights that were fed from phase A. Chances are the electronic controls in the ATS and Gen. are gone also. Don't know about the 16kw UPS,it was in line position and did not have the modules or batteries in it yet.
What would you require before you accepted the building? Megger the gen. to see if it hurt the armature? Megger the HVAC units? What check list would you want to see?
 
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mpd

Senior Member
I would get a hold of the manufacturer, they may have to get involved to verify it does not void there certification or may need a field evaluation
 

220/221

Senior Member
Location
AZ
I'd certainly require anything electronic to be replaced.


Actually, for the kind of money you are likely spending on these things, I'd want all wiring replaced.
 

hurk27

Senior Member
All affected equipment and wiring checked (tested) and any damaged to be replaced with new that was there before it was energized.

All 120 volt loads on phase "A" and "C" that were using power at the time are most likely toast, 120 volt loads on "B" might be ok, but needs to be checked because of no neutral and any multiwire circuits could have fried them too, generator is probably ok, but the controls might have been damaged, the rest will depend upon what voltage each item can withstand, such as many ballast today are good from 120v to 277v, UPS? depends if it was a line to line unit or 120 volt, GFCI's again will depend on which phase they were on. sounds like a mess, and I hope that EC has some good insurance.

Have to add that since the neutral was on "B" then "B" had to be on the neutral, so in that case all 120 volt loads that were using power at the time most likely toast.
 
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ceb58

Senior Member
Location
Raeford, NC
I would get a hold of the manufacturer, they may have to get involved to verify it does not void there certification or may need a field evaluation

Already PMed a member here that works for the company that supplies our building. Maybe he will chime in.

All affected equipment and wiring checked (tested) and any damaged to be replaced with new that was there before it was energized.

All 120 volt loads on phase "A" and "C" that were using power at the time are most likely toast, 120 volt loads on "B" might be ok, but needs to be checked because of no neutral and any multiwire circuits could have fried them too, generator is probably ok, but the controls might have been damaged, the rest will depend upon what voltage each item can withstand, such as many ballast today are good from 120v to 277v, UPS? depends if it was a line to line unit or 120 volt, GFCI's again will depend on which phase they were on. sounds like a mess, and I hope that EC has some good insurance.

Have to add that since the neutral was on "B" then "B" had to be on the neutral, so in that case all 120 volt loads that were using power at the time most likely toast.

Should have been clearer. The service for these buildings are 120/240 single phase. The UPS is a dual conversion line to line. There are no MWBC they are not allowed under our specks. My concern is the Generator.
 

ceb58

Senior Member
Location
Raeford, NC
Well if it 240/120? How can the the white be on "B" and the neutrals are all good ?

Is this a 240 wild leg? :)

Stay with me,Jude;) The contractor landed what was supposed to be the neutral on the B leg of the breaker in the first service disconnect. This neutral wire was correctly installed and isolated in the inside disco.,TVSS, transfer switch, MDP, UPS, Gen. and UPS panel. This caused any thing that should have been 120v on A leg to have 240V.
The wire that should have been the ungrounded B leg was bonded to ground in the first disco.
Big brain fart on someones part.
 

acrwc10

Master Code Professional
Location
CA
Occupation
Building inspector
I doubt the conductors were damaged but utilization equipment I would want checked out. How is the generator connected, Switched neutral or Floating neutral? I'm guessing floating. The electronics in the ATS (if supplied) may be toast.
 

roger

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Fl
Occupation
Retired Electrician
Hello Curtis, I would require that the EC (which would probably be their insurance company) bear all expenses to have the manufacturers check out and replace all the components that might be in question as to being damaged as well as having the generator manufacturer bless their generator.

I would think the manufacturers would balk at honoring their warranties until they had a chance to look at their products and make repairs or replacements. I feel for the EC but this is why he carries insurance.

Tell Wanda we said hi

Roger
 

qcroanoke

Sometimes I don't know if I'm the boxer or the bag
Location
Roanoke, VA.
Occupation
Sorta retired........
Hello Curtis, I would require that the EC (which would probably be their insurance company) bear all expenses to have the manufacturers check out and replace all the components that might be in question as to being damaged as well as having the generator manufacturer bless their generator.

I would think the manufacturers would balk at honoring their warranties until they had a chance to look at their products and make repairs or replacements. I feel for the EC but this is why he carries insurance.

Tell Wanda we said hi

Roger

I totally agree with Roger.
I know the degree of importance these buildings and equipment bring to the plate.These buildings are a very important link in the communications of police and fire. Take no chances. Have everyone sign-off on it.
I don't think I would have every conductor replaced but every componate would be checked especially the UPS and Genset. I would probably want a load test on both.
A failure of either one could cost someone their life.
 

Little Bill

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Tennessee NEC:2017
Occupation
Semi-Retired Electrician
I totally agree with Roger.
I know the degree of importance these buildings and equipment bring to the plate.These buildings are a very important link in the communications of police and fire. Take no chances. Have everyone sign-off on it.
I don't think I would have every conductor replaced but every componate would be checked especially the UPS and Genset. I would probably want a load test on both.
A failure of either one could cost someone their life.



The UPS could be damaged and you might not see it until it went to battery and back to line. The inverter circuit board will most likely be weak or show damage. I would have that thoroughly checked out.
 

ceb58

Senior Member
Location
Raeford, NC
Hello Curtis, I would require that the EC (which would probably be their insurance company) bear all expenses to have the manufacturers check out and replace all the components that might be in question as to being damaged as well as having the generator manufacturer bless their generator.

I would think the manufacturers would balk at honoring their warranties until they had a chance to look at their products and make repairs or replacements. I feel for the EC but this is why he carries insurance.

Tell Wanda we said hi

Roger

I totally agree with Roger.
I know the degree of importance these buildings and equipment bring to the plate.These buildings are a very important link in the communications of police and fire. Take no chances. Have everyone sign-off on it.
I don't think I would have every conductor replaced but every componate would be checked especially the UPS and Genset. I would probably want a load test on both.
A failure of either one could cost someone their life.

Thanks all for the replies. I have fired off an e-mail to those higher up on the food chain recommending that.
1- The build mfg be brought in to check every thing out (pack a bag Mike:grin:) as we know the TVSS units and transactors are fried. and re-certify the building if needed to at least comply with 110.3 A 1-8, 110.7 and 110.12 B
2- Bring in the company that has the contract for start up and service to the Gen. to check all electronics in the transfer switch and Gen., do the start up and load bank the gen. Our gen. are specked to have a 2 year parts and labor and a 5 year parts warranty on them and see if they will still honer the warranty work.
3- Bring in the tech. that dose the UPS start up to check out the unit and load bank under normal and battery conditions. And certify that the warranty is still good.
All this at the contractors expense $$$$$$
If the companies will not honor the warranties then the contractor has just bought a 40kw gen. and an 18kw UPS probably at the tune of 35-40 K$
 
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